TR Naval Programs

[Zafer]

Milden without VLS will be lackluster. They should do a better job. Does this mean the cold launch works is not promising.

 

[Ripley]

Milden without VLS will be lackluster. They should do a better job. Does this mean the cold launch works is not promising.

I am a little bit disappointed too I must admit. The length compared to “rumored” Israeli Dragon and “proposed” Korean KSS III classes seem to be well within the range of supporting at least a 4 tube VLS.

Could they simply just skip the VLS and go for a tube launch only system or gonna install the VLS systems on submarines afterward?

 

[Anmdt]

View attachment 47210
View attachment 47213
Colonel Mr Afacan's statement about Milden:
2700ton displacement
80+m Length overall
AIP diesel-electric submarine
Heavier weapon/missile payload than any submarine in TN inventory

• Conceptual design phase completed
• Preliminary design phase commenced in 2022
• Construction of first Milden will commence in 2025
• Delivery is around 2031

@Anmdt

6 years is a very optimistic term for a new submarine and first hull of a new class. Might easily take up to 2035 with sea trials and delays involved in the components. Also gives us time to work on national AIP, propulsion systems etc.

 

[Windchime]

“proposed” Korean KSS III classes

What do you mean by proposed? The first ship has been delivered long ago and the second and third ships have already been launched.

Also, I don't know if the Ca. 2,500t displacement of MILDEN is surfaced or submerged, but if it's the latter, KSS-III is around a 1,000t larger in displacement. Cramping in VLS inside that ship will ruin crew compartments and living conditions.

Most importantly, what does Türkiye want to do with VLS? ROKN has both the SLBM and supersonic ASM. Better opt for a more conventional layout on your first go.

 

[Heartbang]

Most importantly, what does Türkiye want to do with VLS? ROKN has both the SLBM and supersonic ASM. Better opt for a more conventional layout on your first go.

its not a matter of want, its a matter of need.
a couple of subs full of SLBMs marching up and down Ionian sea would be an excellent answer to the greek belligerence.
you seem to think of Turkiye as some sort of weasel-y blob of a nation backed into a corner, pushing its defence industry to its absolute limits to just hold onto what its got. the reality of the situation is FAR from that.
Us Turks know what we are capable of, on the merit of what we achieved before, even in the grasp of great adversity.

this great nation's magnificent navy deserves a national sub with VLS cells. anyone who claims otherwise is malevolent in his intent.

 

[Windchime]

6 years is a very optimistic term for a new submarine and first hull of a new class. Might easily take up to 2035 with sea trials and delays involved in the components. Also gives us time to work on national AIP, propulsion systems etc.

Delays of such scale usually comes down to a bad project management or unrealistic goals, as you would know.

Türkiye has had a few hiccups in its defence programs, and some of their ongoing programmes are quite ambitious, at least from my own opinion. Though, on the other hand, I think MILDEN seems to have a reasonable timeline and goals as of now, although there are also hints of them venturing into the unknown. Also, from my understandings, Gölcück Shipyards has been HDW/TKMS' partner in Type 214 offers around the world, which I think is a great evidence in their ship building capabilities and cost competitiveness.

Korean and Japanese shipbuilders needed 4 years in average to build their large submarines, while the French and the Germans took a few years longer than that in general. So 6 years might be a bit too tight for the first MILDEN class ship, but even with delays, I think 7~8 years seems more plausible. Unless they follow the steps of the Spanish in building S80 plus class, you know.

 

[Windchime]

you seem to think of Turkiye as some sort of weasel-y blob of a nation backed into a corner, pushing its defence industry to its absolute limits to just hold onto what its got. the reality of the situation is FAR from that.
Us Turks know what we are capable of, on the merit of what we achieved before, even in the grasp of great adversity.

Whoa whoa, chill mate, I've never said anything close to that. Quit the "create and hit a straw" strategy. I'm asking why Türkiye needs a VLS if it's got no armaments that actually needs it.

Also, as I've said, if that displacement is submerged, MILDEN would be too small to accommodate meaningful VLS in current size, unless you sacrifice something else. That is pure technicality, nothing to do with who thinks of what about Türkiye.

this great nation's magnificent navy deserves a national sub with VLS cells. anyone who claims otherwise is malevolent in his intent

So you're saying that those who've laid out the requirements for MILDEN and those who've done the concept studies are bunch of malicious people who are actively trying to sabotage Türkiye? Do you even realize how ridiculous what you're saying sounds like?

As a military enthusiast you should always consider one thing : is this thing what you want something actually needed by the military or do you want it just because it looks and sounds fancy?

Which role do you think MILDEN will fulfill in the Aegean Sea? Probably maritime deterrence against Greek ships operating between the islands in the theater. Are 2,500t class submarines with up-to-date electronics suitable for that mission? Absolutely. Do they really need VLS to fulfill said roles? Probably not.

 

[Zafer]

Türkiye needs submarines that can threaten back the hostiles that threaten Türkiye where ever they are, and not only today but also into the future. Submarines have a long lifetime and the possible systems that can be integrated on them in the future have to be taken into account when they are to be built.

 

[Huelague]

its not a matter of want, its a matter of need.
a couple of subs full of SLBMs marching up and down Ionian sea would be an excellent answer to the greek belligerence.
you seem to think of Turkiye as some sort of weasel-y blob of a nation backed into a corner, pushing its defence industry to its absolute limits to just hold onto what its got. the reality of the situation is FAR from that.
Us Turks know what we are capable of, on the merit of what we achieved before, even in the grasp of great adversity.

this great nation's magnificent navy deserves a national sub with VLS cells. anyone who claims otherwise is malevolent in his intent.

The problems are not the Greeks here. We must be able to hit “Every” nation from our subs with our coming Nukes, from every position. This is the ultimate goal. Because no nation on earth can prevent such a nuke strike from a sub.

 

[Heartbang]

Türkiye needs submarines that can threat back the hostiles that threat Türkiye where ever they are, and not only today but also into the future. Submarines have a long lifetime and the possible systems that can be integrated on them in the future have to be taken into account when they are to be built.

this right here @Windchime . even if theres no need at the moment, they should be added on the basis of future requirements.

So you're saying that those who've laid out the requirements for MILDEN and those whove done the concept studies are bunch of malicious people who are actively trying to sabotage Türkiye?

those who are currently in the process of designing this submarine know the facts ive stated here better than all of us. the "target audience" of that sentence is people like you who asks questions like "why would turkey need a sub with VLS cells?" or "why yall claim Hurjet carries 5 tons of munitions, the site says 2000 something kilos?" etc.
you come about as arrogant, hoity-toity and diminutive. THAT is what im mad about.
our defence industry, time and time again proved itself as a player who punched above its weight. and yes, it had its fuckups, (Altay, Hürkuş) and we criticized those to hell and back. but we did it in a constructive, fruitful manner.
and then here comes a guy whos like "hurr durr, the site says 2721 kilos!" or "what's TSK gonna do with VLS cells?!"
youre not adding value to the discourse.

 

[Windchime]

those who are currently in the process of designing this submarine know the facts ive stated here better than all of us. the "target audience" of that sentence is people like you who asks questions like "why would turkey need a sub with VLS cells?" or "why yall claim Hurjet carries 5 tons of munitions, the site says 2000 something kilos?" etc.
you come about as arrogant, hoity-toity and diminutive. THAT is what im mad about.

Yes, and does that model which have been designed by "those who are currently in the process of designing this submarine" contain a VLS? Doesn't seems to be the case. Like I've said, this ship is 2,700t and I'll tell you for one last time, internal space within a submarine is a very, very precious resource. If you want something, you forgo of something else. I don't give a fuck about how you conceive me because what I'm saying is based on technicalities and realities. Maybe you should go fix your sensitivity first since you sound so offended of such trivial matters.

and then here comes a guy whos like "hurr durr, the site says 2721 kilos!" or "what's TSK gonna do with VLS cells?!"
youre not adding value to the discourse.

Says someone who also has nothing else than to say "Türkiye needs VLS !!!!11!!1" without much thought.

 

[Fighter_35]

Our own first submarine can be with out vs but should also have areas to install vls after 2&3 submarine built. First we need to get our own submarine. Vls can cause the project to be so complex and can delay it.
All in all, we should first produce our own submarine with out so many complexity .later we may increase its complexity when the platform and design prove itself

 

[Baris]

Idk why people are so obsessed with VLS for the submarines, after all these programs are dictated by the Turkish navy and they are actually pretty good at planing. They know what they are doing, they know their needs and their capabilities so let them do what they do best. It's also a mock-up of something that is still in its preliminary design stages, making some hard analysis based on a mock-up of something that's still in its early stages is pointless things, are bound to change.

 

[Zafer]

Idk why people are so obsessed with VLS for the submarines, after all these programs are dictated by the Turkish navy and they are actually pretty good at planing. They know what they are doing, they know their needs and their capabilities so let them do what they do best. It's also a mock-up of something that is still in its preliminary design stages, making some hard analysis based on a mock-up of something that's still in its early stages is pointless things, are bound to change.

They should maintain an open vision and not go for incremental capability gains by looking at the past but look into the future and strive to implement every new capability that Türkiye is gaining in the Milden. Their success will be determined by looking at the world not by looking at our Navy's past.

 

[MIT]

Mdas or balistic launcher.

 

[Heartbang]

Mdas or palistic launcher. View attachment 47224

@Windchime , eat your heart out!

 

[Windchime]

@Windchime , eat your heart out!

Eat a heart my ass. Someone doesn't know that there are hatches meant for other things on a submarine. I'm not so sure why you're so angry in the first place.

Did I say that Türkiye can't build a submarine with a VLS or that Türkiye doesn't have the technology? no. Did I give an explanation as to why it would be reasonable, to not include any VLS on MILDEN, as shown by the model? yes. If the design changes and if TDK decides they need VLS, well good for them. This submarine just entered preliminary design after all.

Go take a chill pill hot damn. You are acting as if a submarine is of no use if it doesn't have VLS and got so angry that you can't stop hitting a strawman.

 

[Gemn]

Eat a heart my ass. Someone doesn't know that there are hatches meant for other things on a submarine. I'm not so sure why you're so angry in the first place.

Did I say that Türkiye can't build a submarine with a VLS or that Türkiye doesn't have the technology? no. Did I give an explanation as to why it would be reasonable, to not include any VLS on MILDEN, as shown by the model? yes. If the design changes and if TDK decides they need VLS, well good for them.

Go take a chill pill hot damn. You guys act like a submarine is of no use if it doesn't have VLS.

The perfect is the killer of the possible one.

 

[Baryshx]

What do you mean by proposed? The first ship has been delivered long ago and the second and third ships have already been launched.

Also, I don't know if the Ca. 2,500t displacement of MILDEN is surfaced or submerged, but if it's the latter, KSS-III is around a 1,000t larger in displacement. Cramping in VLS inside that ship will ruin crew compartments and living conditions.

Most importantly, what does Türkiye want to do with VLS? ROKN has both the SLBM and supersonic ASM. Better opt for a more conventional layout on your first go.

The problem is only taken care of if SLBM and ASM. It is clear that we will go there in 5-10 years.

 

[TR_123456]

@Windchime , eat your heart out!

You!
Need to calm down and learn to take criticism.
Dont be so emotional,this is our biggest flaw as a people.
First we need to be able to build an indigenous system,then go from there.
Hürküs lead to Hürjet leads to MMU/TFX.
Think about it.