TR Propulsion Systems

Zafer

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Thrust vectoring is not worth the effort in modern planes. If deemed useful it can be added as a nozzle extension in the future. However I don't think TAI will do it as it is not critical when you have stand off munitions.
 

Yasar_TR

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Although thrust vectoring gives a definite advantage in agility and quick manoeuvrability, the advantage obtained has not been a game changer or a must case. In fact information to the contrary has been more prevalent.
Just to give you a quick example; The EJ200 engine has had a TVC version which also gives an increase in thrust (both dry and withA/B). Eurofighter users have not opted for this version. Because the advantage wasn’t worth the effort.
Where it would be used most is the dog fights and escaping a2a missiles.
But from pilots‘ anecdotes and technical papers it is certain that when TVC is applied the plane loses so much energy and momentum that to recover it becomes a problem in WVR missions. This has come to light when F22s were played against German Typhoons in Alaska.
With more BVR oriented planes, TVC is not seen a necessity at all.
 

No Name

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Although thrust vectoring gives a definite advantage in agility and quick manoeuvrability, the advantage obtained has not been a game changer or a must case. In fact information to the contrary has been more prevalent.
Just to give you a quick example; The EJ200 engine has had a TVC version which also gives an increase in thrust (both dry and withA/B). Eurofighter users have not opted for this version. Because the advantage wasn’t worth the effort.
Where it would be used most is the dog fights and escaping a2a missiles.
But from pilots‘ anecdotes and technical papers it is certain that when TVC is applied the plane loses so much energy and momentum that to recover it becomes a problem in WVR missions. This has come to light when F22s were played against German Typhoons in Alaska.
With more BVR oriented planes, TVC is not seen a necessity at all.
Thanks for the informative post but I wasn't really asking for a traditional type of fighter but one that doesn't have vertical stabilizers, From what I understand Fluidic Thrust Vectoring might be necessary for fighters that lack vertical stabilizers.

That said I may be wrong on this, if anyone knows please feel free to jump in and correct me.
 
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Zafer

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Thanks for the informative post but I wasn't really asking for a traditional type of fighter but one that doesn't have vertical stabilizers, From what I understand Fluidic Thrust Vectoring might be necessary for fighters that lack vertical stabilizers.

That said I may be wrong on this, if anyone knows please feel free to jump in and correct me.
My guess is because 6th gen fighters rely on better stealth it will not need as much agility and control surfaces in the wings will be enough for the amount of agility it needs.
 

Yasar_TR

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Thanks for the informative post but I wasn't really asking for a traditional type of fighter but one that doesn't have vertical stabilizers, From what I understand Fluidic Thrust Vectoring might be necessary for fighters that lack vertical stabilizers.

That said I may be wrong on this, if anyone knows please feel free to jump in and correct me.
Vertical stabilisers are there to control yaw (side to side movement of nose).
Horizontal stabilisers help control pitch ( up and down movement)
On a delta wing aircraft Elevons/ailerons and flaps take over this duty.


But as per @Zafer ‘s explanation, a 6th generation aircraft may not going to need the kind of agility that is required of a 4th or 5th generation plane. However that is not enough reason to do away with it.
Having said that, the X-36 jet has proven that a tail-less design with delta wings can be very unstable and agile. Please read below site.

1675258506003.jpeg
 
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Rodeo

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Vertical stabilisers are there to control pitch (side to side movement of nose).
Horizontal stabilisers help control yaw ( up and down movement)
It should be the opposite. Vertical stabilizers for yaw control and horizontal stabilizers for pitch control.
 

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No Name

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Vertical stabilisers are there to control pitch (side to side movement of nose).
Horizontal stabilisers help control yaw ( up and down movement)
On a delta wing aircraft Elevons/ailerons and flaps take over this duty.


But as per @Zafer ‘s explanation, a 6th generation aircraft may not going to need the kind of agility that is required of a 4th or 5th generation plane. However that is not enough reason to do away with it.
Having said that, the X-36 jet has proven that a tail-less design with delta wings can be very unstable and agile. Please read below site.

View attachment 53386

They used fly-by-wire to make the aircraft stable.

The X-36 is not the only tailless aircraft that used thrust vectoring the Lockheed Martin x-44 manta didn't have any tail surfaces, and it seems like it didn't make used of any Elevons/ailerons and flaps either.

My guess is because 6th gen fighters rely on better stealth it will not need as much agility and control surfaces in the wings will be enough for the amount of agility it needs.

I disagree with that assessment, but time will tell who is correct.
 

Cabatli_TR

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BMC power production Ankara facility (18,000m2) in New BMC Defence Ankara facility (70,000m2)

UTKU test center
RCPO6195.jpeg

  • TTZA Engine (400hp): Vuran APC, Kirpi-2
  • Azra Engine (600hp): Tank carrier BMC trucks and Marlin USV(2023), %75+ national contribution
  • TTZA and Azra transmission projects are planned
  • Utku engine (1000hp): Firtina2 SPH (Contract signed, Firtina-2 with Utku will be delivered in 2025) and New generation IFV. 10 Utku prototypes are produced until now.
  • Utku transmission run on October 2022. Utku will be run as a power group (engine+transmission) for the first time in 2 months
  • BATU powerpack (1500hp) will be introduced to public in following days. 6 BATU engine prototypes are produced until now. BATU engine was run for 1000 hours in the test environment. When BATU Power Group is attached to the ALTAY prototype, it will undergo a mobility test of 10,000 kilometers.
  • BATU tranmsission run in last Friday first time. The process of combining the engine, transmission and cooling package in the BATU Powerpack continues. The first operation of the BATU Powerpack (engine+transmssion+cooling systems) will be made this year. %75+ national contribution
  • In the M60A3 modernization, BMC plans to develop a power pack with a capacity of 1300hp. The aim is to reduce the BATU power group and to develop 1300 HP power group.
  • BMC power has been developing hybrid propulsion systems.
  • TTZA, Azra, Utku and Batu marine/land generators will be revealed.
Batu Test
RCPO6226.jpeg


 

Lool

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BMC power production Ankara facility (18,000m2) in New BMC Defence Ankara facility (70,000m2)

UTKU test center
View attachment 53392
  • TTZA Engine (400hp): Vuran APC, Kirpi-2
  • Azra Engine (600hp): Tank carrier BMC trucks and Marlin USV(2023), %75+ national contribution
  • TTZA and Azra transmission projects are planned
  • Utku engine (1000hp): Firtina2 SPH (Contract signed, Firtina-2 with Utku will be delivered in 2025) and New generation IFV. 10 Utku prototypes are produced until now.
  • Utku transmission run on October 2022. Utku will be run as a power group (engine+transmission) for the first time in 2 months
  • BATU powerpack (1500hp) will be introduced to public in following days. 6 BATU engine prototypes are produced until now. BATU engine was run for 1000 hours in the test environment. When BATU Power Group is attached to the ALTAY prototype, it will undergo a mobility test of 10,000 kilometers.
  • BATU tranmsission run in last Friday first time. The process of combining the engine, transmission and cooling package in the BATU Powerpack continues. The first operation of the BATU Powerpack (engine+transmssion+cooling systems) will be made this year. %75+ national contribution
  • In the M60A3 modernization, BMC plans to develop a power pack with a capacity of 1300hp. The aim is to reduce the BATU power group and to develop 1300 HP power group.
  • BMC power has been developing hybrid propulsion systems.
  • TTZA, Azra, Utku and Batu marine/land generators will be revealed.
Batu Test
View attachment 53391

Damn nice
BMC power is truly living up to its promises!
 

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Turkish military engines showcased for first time at global defence fair​



  • Türkiye's domestic military land vehicle engines were introduced in the Abu Dhabi-based IDEX event, as it aims to reduce foreign dependence on engine and transmission systems,​

Türkiye's military engines named
Türkiye's military engines named "Tuna" and "Azra" were showcased internationally for the first time (Göksel Yıldırım / AA)
Military land vehicle engines developed by the Turkish defence industry, named Tuna and Azra, were introduced for the first time at an international fair.
BMC Power, aiming to minimise Türkiye's foreign dependency on engine and transmission systems, has been introducing the engines, of which mass production has begun, in the Abu Dhabi-based international defence event IDEX.
Mustafa Kaval, General Manager of BMC Power, told Anadolu that this is the first time they have participated in an international fair as a company.
Stating that the firm exhibited the models of the 400 hp Tuna and 600 hp Azra engines at the fair, Kaval said, "The mass production of the Tuna engine has started and the first 20 engines have been delivered.
"400 hp engines will be used in BMC's Vuran armored personnel carrier vehicles."
He stated that the firm plans to use the Azra engine in tank carrier vehicles.


 

Rodeo

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How many engineers does it take to develop a modern military turbofan engine from scratch(30k-40k lbf wet thrust)?

@Nilgiri
 

Nilgiri

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How many engineers does it take to develop a modern military turbofan engine from scratch(30k-40k lbf wet thrust)?

@Nilgiri

Depends on things like:

A) Quantity and quality of the starting backdrop (RnD materials and database, previous experience in similar disciplines and projects etc) and research facilities...the more here, the less engineers needed. (i.e what do you exactly mean by scratch etc)

B) How much time and money you are prepared to spend....again the more here, the less engineers needed.

C) What level of end product you are satisfied with....the lower the threshold here, again less engineers needed.

Very hard to put a number as so much is determined by input, throughput and output intensities.

Each country generally does this by its own onion layer inheritance (i.e what did smaller or similar projects involve in past, i.e an inner onion layer) and work outwards from there to estimate how much human capital and overall capital it needs this time for a certain timeline.

Then its about management keeping good track of progress (once a project starts) and making more requests to fund providers to address shortfalls and obstacles that will inevitably crop up along the way (you only know these once you have picked the path to find out whats along it etc).
 
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