TR Propulsion Systems

dBSPL

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If the TS1400 had been a direct military turboshaft program and not a general purpose helicopter engine, that is to say, if the EASA and its CS-E certification process and all these civil airworthiness tests, which take thousands of hours part by part and as a system, were not need to be certified by EASA; probably the engine is already in production.
 

Afif

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If the TS1400 had been a direct military turboshaft program and not a general purpose helicopter engine, that is to say, if the EASA and its CS-E certification process and all these civil airworthiness tests, which take thousands of hours part by part and as a system, were not need to be certified by EASA; probably the engine is already in production.
I just wonder how long will it take to derive a military variant of TS1400 and certify it.
 

dBSPL

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I just wonder how long will it take to derive a military variant of TS1400 and certify it.
One of the reasons for the prolonged process is that the certification is not carried out by internal institutions, but by the standards and approval of an international civil aviation safety agency. If I remember correctly, there is a detailed explanation by Mr. Arda Mevlütoğlu somewhere on this subject, but I could not find it now. In order for aircraft carrying this engine to land at European airports, you have to obtain type certification from one of the two agencies. And the T625, which is the first platform to use this engine, targets exactly this market.
 

Nilgiri

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In his latest interview, the CEO of TEI said that over 200 engineers are working directly on TFX engine. What I want to know is if there's a rough industry standard on human capital needed to develop engines of different classes. I realize it depends on the case and there are many variables involved. So without bringing TEI into the equation, with the experience that GE, PW or RR have, how many engineers would those companies would assign to a project to develop an engine like F110 or F119 typically. Total production volume is 1000. And from scratch, I mean it won't be based on an already-developed core. I'm looking for an off the top of my head kind of answer(if such a thing's possible).

From my experience at PW, these days we typically have anywhere around 100 to 1000 high level engineers involved during jet engine design phase (and the later deployment, support and optimisation phases) in these times.

Each of these engineers can have sizeable number of mid level engineers and so on for lower level work along with tech and fab people. Anywhere from 1:1 to 1:5 ratio or even more (if timeline really is intense, funding is little issue and supply of engineers can be scaled easily)

That ratio depends on the iteration feedback loop of the specific project (steady path vs unsteady path spectrum.....more unsteady/unproven it is , the more need for "mid level" people to scope things like scouts in front of you and then higher level guy makes decisions).

Like changing an engine from X1 to X2 (some refinement, enhancement etc) is more steady project....it wont need so many iteration scouts. You already invested all that in project X0 etc.

But developing a fundamentally new engine (in whichever way) with little experience say engine Y and you have only done engine X type before will need lot more mid level engineer ratio (for same amount of time and for same supply of high level engineers/experts you can muster) as theres lot more nooks and crannies and dead ends you will have to find the hard way.

Exact number depends on the current project ramp, funding and other things I mentioned earlier on the project "curve" trajectory (starting conditions, what you can harness and save time not reinventing wheel etc).

So thats why its hard to compare between even the big 3 in the West as they have organised HR noticeably different in the end according to what they did before and what they want to do now. GE for example doesnt need as many mid level engineers as PW does in many classes of commercial engine design, as they pushed early on what proved to be instrumental work (and now IP) regarding this in lubrication lines and bearings in the 80s and 90s. PW plays catch up here now and has to commit lot more today to make up for that given value of MRO efficiency savings to airlines (this is also why GE has vast competitive edge in commercial field and market share).

Overall these numbers were a lot higher back in the day when lot of the core aspects of the engines you mention were developed....given computer aided productivity was still nascent back then so it needed lot more engineers at every level especially the mid level.

So I would say 200 could very well be optimal balance for what TEI has working at high level engineer role...and however many mid level engineers etc that portends to in the larger employee pool.

i.e to go to say 500 or 1000 there (if say supply was no bar) could end up consuming more resources for little gain (compared to spending that on the middle ranks and non labour capital)....just like having too high general and officer count ratio in field army when its operation needs more grunts at particular stage of campaign etc.

But later it can change and it could very well need lot more engineers than that at high level....either for same project (simply the curve position and slope changes for these needs) or the next follow up project that harnesses the work done.
 

Yasar_TR

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Prof Aksit in this interview states that they will start the ignition on TF6000 engine within the first months of 2023. He also mentions that it would take around 8-10 years to develop an engine like TF6000. He states that since they have been working on the TF6000 for 2 years, it should take around 7 years to bring it to serial production state. (That means 2029)
Also he states that developing the TFX engine from TF6000 should be easier to do than what they have been through with the TF6000.

So in his latest speech he has postponed the first ignition of TF6000, to end of 2023. After the ignition and obtaining important data from the prototype TF6000, he will start working on the 35000lbf class TFX engine.
That means we shouldn’t bring our hopes too high about an indigenous turbofan engine for TFX before 2030.
I don’t see why we are so adamant about not giving the temporary TFX engine to RR/Kale consortium. An engine produced under license by this consortium should solve the problem of our engine handicap in the short term.
 

boredaf

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That means we shouldn’t bring our hopes too high about an indigenous turbofan engine for TFX before 2030.
It was always unrealistic expecting us to somehow design, build, test, perfect an engine then start serial production in under 10 years. Hell for my money, I'd bet even 15 is being optimistic.

I don’t see why we are so adamant about not giving the temporary TFX engine to RR/Kale consortium.
I agree, it is always ideal to work for domestic solutions but there is big difference between ideal world and the reality we live in.
 
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zio

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TAI said before,they will produce turboprop from TS1400 but not.We have a lot UAVs and make more also needs turboprob engine.
 

Zafer

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TFX will be delivered with the national engine in 2028.

There is a lot of time to squeeze between now and then. Engines taking 10-15 years to develop are developed as either an innovative product or without an urgent demand. TFX engine on the other hand is only a technology acquisition and production development process. Maybe some material science innovation for the Turkish industry. The time taken to develop the engine is not linear but hosting some opportunities to speed up. It would be safer to go both paths but at what cost. Moreover outsourcing engine development will hamper local development and gives support to the competition instead. Looking at the progress the TF6000 and TF10000 makes I think the government will go domestic when the time comes, Again depending on what we get with these development engines.
 
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Manomed The Second

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TFX will fly be delivered with the national engine in 2028.

There is a lot of time to squeeze between now and then. Engines taking 10-15 years to develop are developed as either an innovative product or without an urgent demand. TFX engine on the other hand is only a technology acquisition and production development process. Maybe some material science innovation for the Turkish industry. The time taken to develop the engine is not linear but with hosting some opportunities to speed up. It would be safer to go both paths but at what cost. Moreover outsourcing engine development will hamper local development and gives support to the competition instead. Looking at the progress the TF6000 and TF10000 makes I think the government will go domestic when the time comes, Again depending on what we get with these development engines.
Very optimistic but I doubt that will happen Kale and RR option is more realistic.
 

Nutuk

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You can't just make a 5th gen engine in 10 years We should make the TF6000 first and get sucessful with it
How do you know? How many engines have you made? Sorry, nothing personal against you but there are many people nowadays claiming so many things with their zero knowledge

If the highest authority on engines in Turkiye (prof Aksit) says something I rather believe his expertise. It is his specialization
 

Manomed The Second

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How do you know? How many engines have you made? Sorry, nothing personal against you but there are many people nowadays claiming so many things with their zero knowledge

If the highest authority on engines in Turkiye (prof Aksit) says something I rather believe his expertise. It is his specialization
How many jet engines did TEI made? prof aksit always talks optimistic because of politics you are the one who can't look at stuff realistically.

TEI first should make the TF-6000 after that we can talk about a engine for tfx making a engine isn't childs play It takes years and we are talking about a fifth gen engine.

also stop taking whatever someone says as a prophecy. I hate whenever someone criticizes here people go like "DO YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS" "HOW MANY JETS YOU MADE??" childish be realistic If you want to coutner a argument
 

Nutuk

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With your logic we also should not make a 5th generation fighter jet, make no helicopters etc.etc.

Empty talk is easy. The guys talking are actually involved in those projects. Sorry again but those are the authorities to listen to, no someone with underbelly feelings.
 

Manomed The Second

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You can't criticize shit here LOL keep up the copium nutuk I ain't gonna even waste my energy with this.

TEI should finish the TS-1400 and TF-6000 first we'll talk about the fifth gen engine when these stuff gets completed
 

Fighter_35

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We should get kale and rolls Royce engine asap. Beside Thai we should also focus on our own engine project for mmu. So we will secure our engine for tfx for sure at the first years of production. Additionally, with working on our own engine project we will secure next version engine technology after 5th generation technology.
 

Manomed The Second

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We should get kale and rolls Royce engine asap. Beside Thai we should also focus on our own engine project for mmu. So we will secure our engine for tfx for sure at the first years of production. Additionally, with working on our own engine project we will secure next version engine technology after 5th generation technology.
We can use RR engines for the early years can change to Turkish one after this is my take.
 

I_Love_F16

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Agree with Manomed. A 5th gen engine is no joke, even more for a company who doesn’t have experience developing this kind of engine. 2028 is an extremely optimistic year. 2030-2035 would be more realistic in my opinion, and that if everything goes well.
 

Rodeo

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How many jet engines did TEI made? prof aksit always talks optimistic because of politics you are the one who can't look at stuff realistically.

TEI first should make the TF-6000 after that we can talk about a engine for tfx making a engine isn't childs play It takes years and we are talking about a fifth gen engine.

also stop taking whatever someone says as a prophecy. I hate whenever someone criticizes here people go like "DO YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS" "HOW MANY JETS YOU MADE??" childish be realistic If you want to coutner a argument
Prof. Aksit is well grounded in his assessments and timelines. He is not very optimistic. He always reiterates and cautions the audience on how arduous and long of a job is to design and certify a jet engine.

The one who is overly optimistic and propose ridiculous timelines(with a tad political motivation) is Mr. Temel Kotil. But the last 4 days has proven that he can deliver on those promises. TAI's pace of progress is puzzling not only for us but for the entire world.
 
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