TR Propulsion Systems

Baryshx

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The explanation that if we enlarge the diameter of the TF6000 engine, it becomes TF35000 does not make sense to me. Is that it, is it just a matter of enlarging the parts?

From what we can see and understand from the statements, TF35000 seems to be 2035. Because the TF6000 job is called 2030.

Cooperation with RR is on the horizon. This is the reason why the SSB is working so hard on this cooperation.
 

boredaf

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I understand the desire to be independent and being able produce everything we need domestically, but that is simply not realistic. I'd be happy if TF6000 turns out to be complete success and manages to power our drones, same goes for TF10000. But we are far away from having a 5th gen engine and we should temper our expectation and not lose ourselves in our own hype.

We should have realistic goals and practical solutions to our shortcomings instead of shooting for the stars and standing there with our dick in our hands when we miss.
 

Aqerdf

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It is doable. If it wasn't Mr. Akşit wouldn't say "as Tei we can do it" multiple times.

More than 300+ F110, F-135 and GenX contibution, in-house super alloys, etc.

2028/29/30 is possible for prototype engine, imo.

This was done almost 30 years ago (F119/120). It is doable.

Yes it will cost money (even if it costs a billion, this is nothing compared to prize), but the prize of operational independence and civ&mil engine family will give more earn to us.

Also, if we want to go 6th and above gens, we also need this step i think. For future engine researchs.
 

Yasar_TR

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The explanation that if we enlarge the diameter of the TF6000 engine, it becomes TF35000 does not make sense to me. Is that it, is it just a matter of enlarging the parts?
If you listen to Dr Aksit’s interview carefully he mentions that the thrust is directly related to diameter of the engine. Hence an increase of around 15cm in diameter, according to Dr Aksit, will achieve a thrust level of 35000lbf.
This is in a way, analogous to increasing a 1500cc 100HP car engine’s cylinder volume to 3000cc and obtaining 300HP.

By increasing the diameter of a turbofan engine, you are increasing the fan diameter to achieve better thrust. In addition you are increasing compressor diameter to push more air into a bigger combustion chamber, which will burn more fuel to achieve higher turbine entry temperatures increasing overall thrust. So yes; it is just a matter of enlarging parts when it comes to thrust. By the way ; 6000lbf does not become 35000lbf. It will become 24000 or 26000lbf.
Only will it become 35000lbf if afterburner is activated.
 
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Baryshx

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If you listen to Dr Aksit’s interview carefully he mentions that the thrust is directly related to diameter of the engine. Hence an increase of around 15cm in diameter, according to Dr Aksit, will achieve a thrust level of 35000lbf.
This is in a way, analogous to increasing a 1500cc 100HP car engine’s cylinder volume to 3000cc and obtaining 300HP.

By increasing the diameter of a turbofan engine, you are increasing the fan diameter to achieve better thrust. In addition you are increasing compressor diameter to push more air into a bigger combustion chamber, which will burn more fuel to achieve higher turbine entry temperatures increasing overall thrust. So yes; it is just a matter of enlarging parts when it comes to thrust. By the way ; 6000lbf does not become 35000lbf. It will become 24000 or 26000lbf.
Only will it become 35000lbf if afterburner is activated.
I mean, those enlarged parts have completely different parameters and metallurgical requirements.
 

TheInsider

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TF-6000 is delayed by 6 months due to an embargo to a very unexpected component. Nothing serious but now it has to be developed nationally.

I mean, those enlarged parts have completely different parameters and metallurgical requirements.
This is not true. For example, Tubitak MAM has recently developed 3rd gen single crystal blades. If you use it for TF-10000 it will be shorter and thinner if you use it for TF-35000 it will be longer and thicker but the metallurgy will be the same.
 

Yasar_TR

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I mean, those enlarged parts have completely different parameters and metallurgical requirements.
In a way yes. As parts become bigger their specifications become more sensitive. Forces acted on those parts are generally larger and the parts will have to be manufactured accordingly.
 

Baryshx

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This was done almost 30 years ago (F119/120). It is doable.
Technology has advanced, supercomputers have appeared, metallurgy and materials science have advanced. But we are going to do it for the first time, how many countries in the world can do it? Japan, India, Korea, China and even Russia are still trying. I wish this TF6000 had been finished or built. Then we would have been able to talk much more easily, but I believe we will do it eventually. Tei's experience in this field is our advantage over other countries.
 
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It is doable. If it wasn't Mr. Akşit wouldn't say "as Tei we can do it" multiple times.

More than 300+ F110, F-135 and GenX contibution, in-house super alloys, etc.

2028/29/30 is possible for prototype engine, imo.

This was done almost 30 years ago (F119/120). It is doable.

Yes it will cost money (even if it costs a billion, this is nothing compared to prize), but the prize of operational independence and civ&mil engine family will give more earn to us.

Also, if we want to go 6th and above gens, we also need this step i think. For future engine researchs.
Saying we can do it and actually doing it, are two different things.

Kale was saying that they can develop a jet engine for SOM missile in 4 years. That was in year 2012. 11 years passed and still not powered the missile. I hope decision makers stay away from Kale. Also, in a similar way TEI still not proved itself on the jet engine front.
 

Nilgiri

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As @Nilgiri pointed out many times before, creep is the problem when you increase the diameters of the blades.

Yeah, length scaling means you non-linearly scale:

Areas by exponent of 2 (i.e squared)

Volumes by exponent of 3 (cubed).

Creep is especially connected to areas getting squared by such scaling.

Weight (mass) is directly connected to volumes getting cubed.

Both among many others present fundamental problems with scaling an engine (driven by thrust connection to diameter in the end, holding propulsive and thermal efficiency frontiers the same for all). There are some good things getting scaled too (volumes to work with unlike when they were smaller), so it becomes matter of harnessing some of that too to help address what is getting scaled in a problematic way.

This is the underlying reason in the end, engines add more compressor and turbine stages too while diameter scaling is done to increase final thrust....to mitigate various creep, weight and other penalties (that scale exponentially)....keeping blades at a more reasonable size etc (trading off by having more of them and having to invest more into bearings and such).

With the otto and diesel cycle similarly, one can notice it is not preferable to simply endlessly scale say a straight 4 (utilising its economy of design at its niche envelope) to bigger and bigger displacements.

The cylinder constraints (given the weight penalty getting cubed) will kick in along with vibration issues getting worse...given a straight 4 is not easily secondarily balanced.

Hence why at some point a straight 6 (addition of two cylinders) becomes a solution....which is both primarily and secondarily balanced.

Similar is seen with scaling up V series engines too.
 

Heartbang

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Saying we can do it and actually doing it, are two different things.

Kale was saying that they can develop a jet engine for SOM missile in 4 years. That was in year 2012. 11 years passed and still not powered the missile. I hope decision makers stay away from Kale. Also, in a similar way TEI still not proved itself on the jet engine front.
Dafuq are you on about? KTJ-3200 is done and ready
 

Afif

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@-Sinan- iirc, in late 2022 ATMACA was tested with KTJ3200.
And SOM is supposed to be tested with KTJ3200 this year.
 

Heartbang

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What about proving your words, instead of running your mouth ?

@-Sinan- iirc, in late 2022 ATMACA was tested with KTJ3200.
And SOM is supposed to be tested with KTJ3200 this year.

Afif is right, and so am I. It is ready.
 
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Oublious

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Osman Okyayu explained why they finished in 10 years, ther was no companies who could make the parts for KALE in Turkey. So they invested, and that costed 10 years. From electronics to materials...

 

Saithan

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It’s important to not dismiss the criticism, but take it to heart and do better at communicating. Communication and PR are the same and as you guys may have noticed we pretty much suck at it. If projects are delayed it’s important to say we got delayed due to external factors and will solve it with internal ressources.
 

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