TR Propulsion Systems

Nilgiri

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I'm not very knowledgeable about engines but I don't think an engine strong enough to fly these vehicles cannot be derived from the TS1400. Also, I'm not sure if a decent turbofan will come out of a civilian engine with a radial compressor, which is difficult to use in the military. Of course, it would be more correct to ask @Nilgiri .

Yup, clean sheet start is best for Turkish turbofan programs given the radial compressor here.

Radial compressors have sweetspot reasons at this size, but their disadvantages grow considerably if you want to scale up the engine. Both the investment in cross sectional area (per compression ratio ability) and the design needed to transfer this compressed air to the combustor (it is reverse flow combustor like PT-6 I believe, who's benefit again lies with this particular size range ). i.e Reverse flow plumbing and orientation wont work for turbofans (given the literal fan)....they are turboshaft/prop specific.
 

Bürküt

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Yup, clean sheet start is best for Turkish turbofan programs given the radial compressor here.

Radial compressors have sweetspot reasons at this size, but their disadvantages grow considerably if you want to scale up the engine. Both the investment in cross sectional area (per compression ratio ability) and the design needed to transfer this compressed air to the combustor (it is reverse flow combustor like PT-6 I believe, who's benefit again lies with this particular size range ). i.e Reverse flow plumbing and orientation wont work for turbofans (given the literal fan)....they are turboshaft/prop specific.
It probably didn't make sense to make a military engine in this class just to be able to sell 30 helicopters to Pakistan. That's why I think they preferred a radial compressor civillian engine.I also remember that Akşit said that they were working Radial on this engine.
 
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Yasar_TR

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It probably didn't make sense to make a military engine in this class just to be able to sell 30 helicopters to Pakistan. That's why I think they preferred a radial compressor civillian engine.I also remember that Akşit said that they were working Radial on this engine.
As TEI is producing LHTEC800 engine under license, they are very familiar with this engine. When TEI was asked to produce a similar power level indigenous engine, it was only logical to “almost copy” the engine they were familiar with. So they designed an engine that had a radial flow compressor like the LHTEC800.

Even if they produced a military version of the TS1400, it wouldn’t be very likely to power the Pakistani Atak helicopters as Atak helicopters are also being produced under license from Italy, which stipulates that they have to have LHTEC engines powering them.
 

Combat-Master

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Even if they produced a military version of the TS1400, it wouldn’t be very likely to power the Pakistani Atak helicopters as Atak helicopters are also being produced under license from Italy, which stipulates that they have to have LHTEC engines powering them.

Yeah that's what Mahmut Aksit said towards the end of Tolga Ozbeks interview, hopefully we'll see the engine in T629.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Mahmut Akşit literally repeating verbatim what I've been saying about TF35K development schedule:


The state wants them to hurry for Tf35K, so Mr Akşit says that as they did in the Ts1400 (6 years from design to first flight), the most difficult tech leap is required from us. He mentions that there will be features that a few engines have in the world in terms of features of Tf35K and He add that under normal conditions, this engine can be developed between 14-17 years but they will try to make Tf-35K ready in less than 10 years from the start of the program to the first flight (2018-2028(?)).
 

Rooxbar

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The state wants them to hurry for Tf35K, so Mr Akşit says that as they did in the Ts1400 (6 years from design to first flight), the most difficult tech leap is required from us. He mentions that there will be features that a few engines have in the world in terms of features of Tf35K and He add that under normal conditions, this engine can be developed between 14-17 years but they will try to make Tf-35K ready in less than 10 years from the start of the program to the first flight (?).
Yeah I think he means first flight because he compares it to the 6 years it took from start to first flight in Ts1400. But he does emphasize that this schedule is kind of a miraculous thing to expect. But even by this miraculous standards, if the project was to start this year, best case scenario would be first flight in 2033.
 

Rodeo

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Yeah I think he means first flight because he compares it to the 6 years it took from start to first flight in Ts1400. But he does emphasize that this schedule is kind of a miraculous thing to expect. But even by this miraculous standards, if the project was to start this year, best case scenario would be first flight in 2033.
Another important point to note, he is not talking about a better F110 or something. They're trying to develop a full-blown 5th-gen fighter engine. The stealth requirements of the engine is probably adding a few years to the development calendar. If they were satisfied with less, I would assume we would see the engine seeing the light much sooner. And I also think that we shouldn't skip the next step after TF10000, namely, an engine in the same class with F404, EJ200 etc. to make us more grounded in the tech.
 
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Bürküt

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Another important point to note, he is not talking about a better F110 or something. They're trying to develop a full-blown 5th-gen fighter engine. The stealth requirements of the engine is probably adding a few years to the development calendar. If they were satisfied with less, I would assume we would see the engine seeing the light much sooner. And I also think that we shouldn't skip the next step after TF10000, namely, an engine in the same class with F404, EJ200 etc.

42.45

Recently I watched this video. KY says that it will not be easy to produce an engine that conforms to Hürjet's philosophy.He says that an engine of that size can be over-performing and maintenance will be expensive.
 

Heartbang

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Another important point to note, he is not talking about a better F110 or something. They're trying to develop a full-blown 5th-gen fighter engine. The stealth requirements of the engine is probably adding a few years to the development calendar. If they were satisfied with less, I would assume we would see the engine seeing the light much sooner. And I also think that we shouldn't skip the next step after TF10000, namely, an engine in the same class with F404, EJ200 etc. @Rooxbar
If its gonna take that long, then perhaps they should do things like the Chinese, reverse-engineer the engine they used on the prototypes to hastily achieve sovereignty first and then improve on it over time.
J20 had a variety of engines in its lifetime, it goes on like this:

AL-31➡️WS-10B➡️WS-10C➡️WS-15(the preferred one)

Perhaps we also must adapt a similar gameplan
 

Cabatli_TR

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Yeah I think he means first flight because he compares it to the 6 years it took from start to first flight in Ts1400. But he does emphasize that this schedule is kind of a miraculous thing to expect. But even by this miraculous standards, if the project was to start this year, best case scenario would be first flight in 2033.

I think Starting year shouldn't be thought as the year that official contract signature ceremony will be held. It is for sure that targetted features have already been reported to TEI/TrMotor and they have been told to start working without waiting official contract so more than 200 engineers from TrMotor and TEI are working on design phase at present. State don't want to lose any time because tender process will take time longer than expected. They have revealed the TÇD to institutes in 2022 and the process is still continuing.

On the other hand, Tf35K framework contract with TrMotor was signed in 2018 and according to this contract, the target was reported as 2026 first ignition and 2027/2029 first flight. If we take this date as a base, "2028" year stated by Mr.Kotil appears as an official target.
 

Yasar_TR

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The state wants them to hurry for Tf35K, so Mr Akşit says that as they did in the Ts1400 (6 years from design to first flight), the most difficult tech leap is required from us. He mentions that there will be features that a few engines have in the world in terms of features of Tf35K and He add that under normal conditions, this engine can be developed between 14-17 years but they will try to make Tf-35K ready in less than 10 years from the start of the program to the first flight (2018-2028(?)).
He reminds me of “Scotty” from the original Star Trek series. Captain Kirk used to ask, how long before warp power availability. He would say 12 hours. Kirk used to say get it ready in 2 hours. And he used to do it in two.
Prof Aksit quotes 14-17 years for an engine first flight. He is asked to do it in 10. He will probably do it in 8.
TF6000/10000 is part of the TF35000 project. TF6000 project was started in 2019 / 2020. At least that is when the first smell of it came out in the form of a patent application. TR Motor company, responsible for the development of TFX engine was formed in April 2017. They have been working on the project in computer environment ever since.
The real work will however be done after first results begin to flow in after the TF6000 engine start up. They will start filling in all the empty boxes. And start dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s.
We have to remember that there is a long road after the first flight too. The engine will have to prove itself to perform what it is asked to do and keep it’s composure when it is pushed to it’s limits.
 

Rooxbar

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Another important point to note, he is not talking about a better F110 or something. They're trying to develop a full-blown 5th-gen fighter engine. The stealth requirements of the engine is probably adding a few years to the development calendar. If they were satisfied with less, I would assume we would see the engine seeing the light much sooner. And I also think that we shouldn't skip the next step after TF10000, namely, an engine in the same class with F404, EJ200 etc.
They are working on ceramic matrix composites in collaboration with Gebze Technical University and TÜBİTAK MAM; they started around 2019 I think; by 2017 they had already achieved turbine inlet temperature of around 1400°C in TS1400; since then I think they've probs come close to 1600°, but to get to that coveted ~1800°+ they need CMCs. A quick look at the development history of XF9 from a country which had CMC technologies is enough to dispel any kind of immature expectations.
 

Yasar_TR

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They are working on ceramic matrix composites in collaboration with Gebze Technical University and TÜBİTAK MAM; they started around 2019 I think; by 2017 they had already achieved turbine inlet temperature of around 1400°C in TS1400; since then I think they've probs come close to 1600°, but to get to that coveted ~1800°+ they need CMCs. A quick look at the development history of XF9 from a country which had CMC technologies is enough to dispel any kind of immature expectations.
With latest engine configurations regarding application of “Blisk Fan” and additive manufacturing technologies, the turbine entry air temperatures have been greatly lowered to facilitate use of more efficient engine parts.
Hence to obtain high thrust levels you don’t need to have such temperature levels at turbine entry.
If we can start using CMC this will be augmented even more. And the need for high temperature control will be greatly reduced. But the CMC tech is still in it’s infancy and we are quite a few years away from applying it to operational engines.
However, TEI has been improving in the use of additive technologies and blisk fan manufacturing. These two new developments have allowed the f110ge129EFE engine‘s turbine entry temperatures to be lowered and decreased the need to find better cooling methods of the blades. This in turn has increased thrust levels and lowered the use of fuel for this engine.
All these new techs are being implemented in the manufacture of TF6000/TF10000 engines. They in turn will be used in the development of the TF35000.
 
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Zafer

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2028 is the delivery date to the airforce of the TFX powered by the Turkish made engine. It is supposed to be a production engine and not a prototype one.
 

Rodeo

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2028 is the delivery date to the airforce of the TFX powered by the Turkish made engine. It is supposed to be a production engine and not a prototype one.
I'm sorry for being blunt but that's impossible unless we put together a TF35000 prototype and ignite this year(which is also impossible). We would be very lucky if we had TFX starting flying with TF35000 prototypes in 2028.
 

Zafer

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I'm sorry for being blunt but that's impossible unless we put together a TF35000 prototype and ignite this year(which is also impossible). We would be very lucky if we had TFX starting flying with TF35000 prototypes in 2028.
I would rather take Mr Kotil's words as a credible source as he hasn't failed to keep any of his promises so far.
 

Radonsider

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I would rather take Mr Kotil's words as a credible source as he hasn't failed to keep any of his promises so far.
He didn't say that it will be delivered to airforce serially with TF-35K, he said they will fly it in 2028+They aim to deliver 20 TF-X to Air force by 2028
 

Zafer

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He didn't say that it will be delivered to airforce serially with TF-35K, he said they will fly it in 2028+They aim to deliver 20 TF-X to Air force by 2028
He said with a domestic engine but he did not make it clear if it is the TF35k engine or a foreign design made in Türkiye. I will give it 50/50 between the two possibilities.
 

dBSPL

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TF6000 may actually be the TF35000 project itself. In other words, it could be a preliminary model of the TF-35000 design to be scaled and to pass some test processes more cost-effectively and quickly. When the TF6000 is first started, in a sense, TEI will have ignited 1/3 or 1/4 model of the TF35000. I know there are countless complex parameters such as combustion chamber values, airflow, pressure etc., but in the end the same main design will be used.

The reason I think so is that the TF-6000 project came from complete nowhere. It is not an engine programme initiated in conjunction with any aircraft programme. On the contrary, since TEI is working on it, there is a view that we can use this 6000-lbf engine in this or that vehicle. However, the statements made by TEI are basically that this is an intermediate step that enables a more cost-effective and risk-manageable path to the TF-35000.
 

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