TR Propulsion Systems

Rodeo

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Türkiye has been making most parts of F110 for decades believe it or not as half partner of General Electric.
We were not making most of the F110 parts. Here are the parts that TEI had been producing for F110 program. None of those were critical, afaik.

f110.png

Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.

I can't speak for India but you should read more about Korean turbine engine programs that are both in service or in testing. They're not behind us. They will be if we achieve our goals with TF6000 and TS1400 but that's not today's reality.

If west doesn't give even licensed production permission to build F110s. We could easily make a slightly modified version tomorrow.
It is out of courtesy that we are asking, not desperation like some skeptics in west imagine.

We can't make F110 tomorrow. Even if GE gave us all the blueprints, the lack of capital machinery would be a roadblock.

It's better to listen to the engine guys like Mahmut Akşit or senior TEI engineers like Sinan Şal about engine timelines. Their estimations would be more accurate than Temel Kotil's or other figures'.
 
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TheInsider

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They are not building the engine. The project is not that far along.

Considering its peers(WS-15, F119, F135) took at least 15 years to be develop by the two superpowers, it would be quite extraordinary even if we put the engine in service as early as 2033.
That is not a good comparison. Those engines are designed with the tech of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. TF35 is in design with the tech of 2020.

Even if GE gave us all the blueprints, the lack of capital machinery would be a roadblock.
This is not true. TEI can manufacture any engine with its current machine shop capabilities.
 
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DBdev

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I will move these slightly off-topic posts to the appropriate thread.


We were not making most of the F110 parts. Here are the parts that TEI had been producing for F110 program. None of those were critical, afaik.

View attachment 63390


I can't speak for India but you should read more about Korean turbine engine programs that are both in service or in testing. They're not behind us. They will be if we achieve our goals with TF6000 and TS1400 but that's not today's reality.



We can't make F110 tomorrow. Even if GE gave us all the blueprints, the lack of capital machinery would be a roadblock.

It's better to listen to the engine guys like Mahmut Akşit or senior TEI engineers like Sinan Şal about engine timelines. Their estimations would be more accurate than Temel Kotil's or other figures'.
Who are these random people keep popping up and rejecting everything Kotil, Erdogan says for almost a decade? Despite keep being proven wrong. Are they getting paid, ordo they have classic inferiority complex?

CEOs of TEI-TUSAS said they CAN make the hot parts of the F110. These randos on the internet say, no. Since you are 100 nobodies but still majority, against the CEO of global top 100 defense company. You must be right, right?!
 

Rodeo

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That is not a good comparison. Those engines are designed with the tech of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. TF35 is in design with the tech of 2020.
True, but by the time Americans began working on the F119, they had already developed several large turbofans. They had the infrastructure, the skilled and experienced staff, the capital machinery, the supply chain and everything. We will have to develop everything ourselves.
 

Rodeo

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Who are these random people keep popping up and rejecting everything Kotil, Erdogan says for almost a decade? Despite keep being proven wrong. Are they getting paid, ordo they have classic inferiority complex?

CEOs of TEI-TUSAS said they CAN make the hot parts of the F110. These randos on the internet say, no. Since you are 100 nobodies but still majority, against the CEO of global top 100 defense company. You must be right, right?!
No one says it can't be done. The core technology is there. The infrastructure and the design capabilities aren't. I suggest you to read the "Gaz Türbinli Motor Yol Haritası"(Gas Turbine Engine Roadmap) that was published by SSB to be better informed. It displays our capabilities and the technologies we have to be developing to be able to build our engine. It includes timeframes for the gaining of various technologies.


If you don't have the time, skip to the page 129 and start reading from there.
 

infrared

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Who are these random people keep popping up and rejecting everything Kotil, Erdogan says for almost a decade? Despite keep being proven wrong. Are they getting paid, ordo they have classic inferiority complex?

CEOs of TEI-TUSAS said they CAN make the hot parts of the F110. These randos on the internet say, no. Since you are 100 nobodies but still majority, against the CEO of global top 100 defense company. You must be right, right?!
Maybe you should try to listen to both sides because of this:


or this:


or this:


or this:


and lots of other examples.

In the end, if the projects are delayed even several years, our country will be under a big threat considering we may not get F16 or EF, so not using pink glasses is maybe the better option for some?
 

Zafer

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They are not building the engine. The project is not that far along.

Considering its peers(WS-15, F119, F135) took at least 15 years to be develop by the two superpowers, it would be quite extraordinary even if we put the engine in service as early as 2033.
Reliable simulation software only emerged in the last couple of decades. We are living in different times.
 

Heartbang

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Maybe you should try to listen to both sides because of this:


or this:


or this:


or this:


and lots of other examples.

In the end, if the projects are delayed even several years, our country will be under a big threat considering we may not get F16 or EF, so not using pink glasses is maybe the better option for some?
Those are COVID delays though.
 

DBdev

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Since TUSAS CEO Kotil wasn't good enough for some all knowing people above. Listen it from actual TEI Chief Mahmut Akşit then.

"We started TS1400 from nothing... By mining cobalt for the first time from our own mines, we couldn't even produce stainless steel before, but finished 2 years earlier than global giant competitors."

Impossible for others is just another day at the office for TEI & TUSAS. Do not compare us with other nations.

Hardest part of turbine engines are the hot parts. We have already delivered TS1400, TEI-700 and 701D to military with all hot parts built in TEI. Turbofan hot parts for TF10000 is waiting for first ignition.

"What else do you want...?" like Akşit says. He also said they can now produce F-110 engine hot parts too, but can't remember when. Does anyone remember?

 

Spitfire9

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Since TUSAS CEO Kotil wasn't good enough for some all knowing people above. Listen it from actual TEI Chief Mahmut Akşit then.

"We started TS1400 from nothing... By mining cobalt for the first time from our own mines, we couldn't even produce stainless steel before, but finished 2 years earlier than global giant competitors."

Impossible for others is just another day at the office for TEI & TUSAS. Do not compare us with other nations.

Hardest part of turbine engines are the hot parts. We have already delivered TS1400, TEI-700 and 701D to military with all hot parts built in TEI. Turbofan hot parts for TF10000 is waiting for first ignition.

"What else do you want...?" like Akşit says. He also said they can now produce F-110 engine hot parts too, but can't remember when. Does anyone remember?

Out of curiosity, what kind of turbine inlet temperature are we talking about with TF6000 - a lot higher than F110?
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Who are these random people keep popping up and rejecting everything Kotil, Erdogan says for almost a decade? Despite keep being proven wrong. Are they getting paid, ordo they have classic inferiority complex?

CEOs of TEI-TUSAS said they CAN make the hot parts of the F110. These randos on the internet say, no. Since you are 100 nobodies but still majority, against the CEO of global top 100 defense company. You must be right, right?!
BUT HE IS A CEO OF COMPANY!!!! Yeah but he plays for the crowd you can't make a engine that is par with F35 in 5 years keep dreaming.

Randos on Internet here have more knowledge than probably even kotil.

Even mehmet akşit said that Its not a childs play to make a jet engine.

Also stop comparing TS1400 to jet engines you are making yourself look funny.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Maybe you should try to listen to both sides because of this:


or this:


or this:


or this:


and lots of other examples.

In the end, if the projects are delayed even several years, our country will be under a big threat considering we may not get F16 or EF, so not using pink glasses is maybe the better option for some?
He claims we don't know better than kotil, I wonder what happened to Helicopters that supposed to be delviered with TS1400 ah right delayed.
 

DBdev

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Sheesh.. How were we ignoring people here? YAS! Found it, now keep yapping all you want oh all knowing maximini or whatever the heck your name was. Byeee...
 

Rooxbar

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Maybe you should try to listen to both sides because of this:


or this:


or this:


or this:


and lots of other examples.

In the end, if the projects are delayed even several years, our country will be under a big threat considering we may not get F16 or EF, so not using pink glasses is maybe the better option for some?
Also:

"Radar Cross Section Test facility will be opened in 2021" - date: december 2019


"Radar Cross Section Test facility will be opened in the second quarter of 2024" - date: february 2023

I love Temel Kotil, but as any other manager he can be prone to overpromising. The hurdles are real and countries as diverse as Russia, China, Japan, India and France have been wrestling with them for decades, as they are doing now. So these are not some old problems, as someone else alluded to, which can now be bypassed by 3d printing and digital twins and Dassault and Siemens CADs (things Temel Kotil is referring to when he talks about how they accelerated the MMU design, and which I point out to show how they don't apply here). The metallurgic hurdles are contemporary and Japan, Russia and India are grappling with them currently. China seems to have passed them, at least they claim they have but it took them two decades. The past two decades, not decades 50 years ago.
 

Nilgiri

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Yeah bro keep dreaming we don't even mass produced TF600 but surely we could make a fifth gen engine maybe stop watching TRT or A-haber.

*Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.*

This part made me laugh India was building several engines while we were struggling with TS1400 and that is a turboshaft engine not even a jet engine.

We turks have this delusion that KAAN will beat F35 or other proven jets KAAN will enter service in probably 2035 with foreign engines.

Also making an F110 engine doesn't qualift that tr motor could made fifth gen engine in 5 years even superpowers had problems and they weren't embargoed like us.

F110 IS A FOURTH GEN ENGINE MAN AMOUNT OF MISINFORMATION AND DELUSION THIS GUY IS WRITING KILLING ME @Nilgiri could you give him a lesson about Indian engine programs he seems ignorant

There is thread for Indian engines for discussion/analysis...better place for any interested members so we don't go off topic in this thread.


I generally judge on deliverables. There is lot of things up in the air, and many laypeople often prefer to use "unprecedented" "we will do everything" "our engineers are tier A+++" etc by whichever selective filter they use on the topic.... i.e some asserted exceptionalism while development is ongoing.

Whereas objective reality can only be measured by what you deliver in the end, that takes time to gauge.

The contexts are different too w.r.t how Turkiye uses its NATO ecosystem (which India, China are not part of though countries like South Korea and India increasingly have their own specific one they are developing with US).

This is reason why non-NATO countries have often been more reliant on Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian, and to some degree France as well for their R&D ecosystem development in gas turbines/jet engines like India has been w.r.t Russian licensed engine production at HAL Koraput and French licensed engine production (turboshaft shakti engine).

Leveraging these with the local program (Kaveri engine in India's case) depends on dedicated funding, program priority and economy of scale (for example why China has delivered more than India in their respective route maps so far in this field).

Though there is now recent positive news on a hard deliverable w.r.t Kaveri in that it will be integrated soon on a Tejas test bed, though likely its final use will be in the stealth drone program as the hard numbers (it has been able to deliver) and time pressure, HR priority etc involved makes cooperation with GE and Safran more viable choice for the next production series of powerplants for Indian combat aircraft.

It is very different story to Turkish context in the end....for example HAL Koraput equivalent in Turkish ecosystem case involved GE mostly (given combat aircraft in TurAF), not Russia.

The very same assertions I have seen w.r.t Koraput (we have this ability, so it automatically means end-end production ability of another engine, Kaveri should have been more Russia basis rather than GE American etc etc), I see from some members here w.r.t GE. i.e huge assumptions which may or may not pan out (Rodeo mentions some reasons why).

But that all remains to be seen by deliverables, period....as in the end there are lot of things in play that are not guaranteed (people can search my replies in just this thread, not interested in rehashing them again - I forgot if it was in here I mentioned the issue of just bearings R&D and QC for example).

So I prefer to follow hard output deliverables past promises, speculation, exceptionalism and everything else that I have seen happen when any country is on "catch up" mode with its own program on something (seen this with for examply my following of Chinese and Indian programs). Its somewhat natural to have that, but really what you deliver in end is the only final proof.

Till then I prefer to get into answering specific queries on specific issues as possible where I may be of some help to explaining to others.

The generalised entire program is matter of many more moving parts and can be subject to more emotionalism (from those sitting outside) in end, its not my cup of tea.
 
E

Era_shield

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Maybe you should try to listen to both sides because of this:


or this:


or this:


or this:


and lots of other examples.

In the end, if the projects are delayed even several years, our country will be under a big threat considering we may not get F16 or EF, so not using pink glasses is maybe the better option for some?
Did you just phase in from an alternate dimension? Here in this one we had this little thing called "covid". Plans for 2020 and 2021 were affected by it. Now please return back to your planet and inform the others.
 

DBdev

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Exceptionalist layman says hi.

I am not making these up. I am relaying messages from more knowledgeable people than any of the so called experts here.

This fresh tweet is from this morning. Since we layman are not good enough. Hear it from an actual top GE employee and TEI CEO. (You know, the advanced jet fighter engine producer of this earth!)

TEI General Manager Mahmut Faruk AKŞİT:

The most difficult part of our production is over. We expect to finish the remaining part by the end of the year and hear the engine sound. After this stage, we can build whichever engine our state needs, in whatever size and for whatever purpose.
TF10000
GAJ_B86W0AABB9L.jpg

 

boredaf

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Both sides of this now pages long argument has a point.

What we are attempting here is borderline unprecedented in modern aviation, and, what we have done so far does not justify the (seemingly) blind trust people have that we can complete this project within the time frame that has been reiterated time and again. Especially when we compare it to the timelines of other similar engine projects. There is also the fact that, unfortunately, people in charge does have a tendency to exaggerate or at the very least paint very rosy pictures when it comes to big projects in our country. It isn't unique to our country, of course, but we cannot overlook the propaganda aspect of projects like this.

HOWEVER, we are not exactly novices when it comes to engines, nor our engineers are starting from scratch without any prior experience. We have people who have worked in some of the best companies in this field, including people in charge unless I'm mistaken. And most of the similar engine projects did start in different eras than the one we are in right now, we shouldn't overlook the advantage of using modern designing programs and simulators, as well as production techniques. And thanks to actions of our "allies", this project transformed from being critical to being a matter of pride and a motivation like that shouldn't be underestimated.

Now, I personally don't think we will have TF-X with domestic engines flying before 2030. Not because I doubt we can do it but projects like this rarely advance without problems. But even having TF-6000 (and TF-10000 afterwards) will substantially increase our capabilities, thanks to KE and Anka-3.
 

Zafer

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I take our officials' words as the most reliable source of information and bet on 2028 as the year when we fly our Kaan with our domestic engine in trials. But I would expect it to happen even earlier as the world is heading towards even more troubled times and we want to be prepared in time for it rather than sit still and be victimized. Necessity is the mother of inventions and we are in for inventing our own weapons. "We can fight!"
 
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