TR Propulsion Systems

Yasar_TR

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There is a company called TR Motor. It is no more than a design bureau (like ivchenko progress of Ukraine which designs engines for motor Sich) . It is placed in a building over 3 storeys. They employ a number of engineers. The main reason behind this company was also to safeguard the IP rights of the engine designed and produced. There has been a lot of controversy over this company as one of it’s major partners is part Qatari owned BMC. It is guessed that Rolls Royce pulled out of TFX engine bidding because of this company.
Now , they have been “designing” an engine for TFX. But does anyone know if TEI or Kale - who are the only two entities with tools to build an engine or it’s parts - are working over an engine for TFX?
 
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Zafer

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There is a company called TR Motor. It is no more than a design bureau (like ivchenko progress of Ukraine which designs engines for motor Sich) . It is placed in a building over 3 storeys. They employ a number of engineers. The main reason behind this company was also to safeguard the IP rights of the engine designed and produced. There has been a lot of controversy over this company as one of it’s major partners is part Qatari owned BMC. It is guessed that Rolls Royce pulled out of TFX engine bidding because of this company.
Now , they have been “designing” an engine for TFX. But does anyone know if TEI or Kale - who are the only two entities with tools to build an engine or it’s pars - are working over an engine for TFX?
Are you saying RR would give its technology to TRmotor if it was not for BMC who also has a Qatari partner?
 

Anmdt

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Are you saying RR would give its technology to TRmotor if it was not for BMC who also has a Qatari partner?
Yes, indeed.
UK would share the tech with Turkey, not with Qatar which may not be known to share with whom (ie. Iran).
TEI has received sufficient tech through partnerships over year, even licensed production of T700 was pulled off by deals. Quess why? TAI and GE had shares in it, not BMC.
That is why TRMotor should have been a JV of Kale-TEI-TAI-Alp-SSB , which are the companies related with "aero" engines.
Not a company known how to emerge in motor industry in a week.
 
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Sinan

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Are you saying RR would give its technology to TRmotor if it was not for BMC who also has a Qatari partner?
Yes, indeed.
UK would share the tech with Turkey, not with Qatar which may not be known to share with whom (ie. Iran).
TEI has received sufficient tech through partnerships over year, even licensed production of T700 was pulled off by deals. Quess why? TAI and GE had shares in it, not BMC.
That is why TRMotor should have been a JV of Kale-TEI-TAI-Alp-SSB , which are the companies related with "aero" engines.
Not a company known how to emerge in motor industry in a week.
British engine maker Rolls-Royce has scaled back efforts to join a Turkish programme to build a new fighter jet, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

Talks between Turkey’s Kale Group and Rolls-Royce, ran into problems last year because of a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company, according to the FT report.


Rolls-Royce has all but abandoned efforts to win the bid for the fifth generation fighter aircraft after failing to find a compromise, FT added, citing people familiar with the matter.

In 2017 Kale Group said it would set up a joint venture with Rolls-Royce to develop aircraft engines after Britain and Turkey signed a defence deal worth more than 100 million pounds ($133 million) to develop Turkish fighter jets.


Last year Turkish Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said the door remained open for international engine makers to get involved in Turkey’s TF-X national fighter jet project.

Rolls-Royce did not respond immediately to a request for comment and Kale Group could not be reached for comment.


I'm not very sure on if BMC had not been part of the project, RR would agree. To my knowledge SSB wants to own all the IP rights of the engine. However, RR has problem with that.

I think, SSB is on right course. If we are designing an engine from scratch, we should own all the IP rights, incase we have problems with UK in the future. However, this project should be given to TEI. They proved themselves with TS1400 engine. Real zero to hero situation. It was just a signed paper 5 years ago and we are putting it on a real helicopter. Compare this feat with KaleAero's failure with KTJ3200. Also, Ethem Sancak should look somewhere else to make money. Maybe, Treasury can sell him some land for cheap so that he leaves our engine programs alone.
 
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Zafer

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British engine maker Rolls-Royce has scaled back efforts to join a Turkish programme to build a new fighter jet, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

Talks between Turkey’s Kale Group and Rolls-Royce, ran into problems last year because of a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company, according to the FT report.


Rolls-Royce has all but abandoned efforts to win the bid for the fifth generation fighter aircraft after failing to find a compromise, FT added, citing people familiar with the matter.

In 2017 Kale Group said it would set up a joint venture with Rolls-Royce to develop aircraft engines after Britain and Turkey signed a defence deal worth more than 100 million pounds ($133 million) to develop Turkish fighter jets.


Last year Turkish Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said the door remained open for international engine makers to get involved in Turkey’s TF-X national fighter jet project.

Rolls-Royce did not respond immediately to a request for comment and Kale Group could not be reached for comment.


I'm not very sure on if BMC had not been part of the project, RR would agree. To my knowledge SSB wants to own all the IP rights of the engine. However, RR has problem with that.

I think, SSB is on right course. If we are designing an engine from scratch, we should own all the IP rights, incase we have problems with UK in the future. However, this project should be given to TEI. They proved themselves with TS1400 engine. Real zero to hero situation. It was just a signed paper 5 years ago and we are putting it on a real helicopter. Compare this feat with KaleAero's failure with KTJ3200. Also, Ethem Sancak should look somewhere else to make money. Maybe, Treasury can sell him some land for cheap so that he leaves our engine programs alone.
RR wouldn't give any valuable tech to Turkey in any case.
TRmotor will be the IP holder shell company; designing the engine and managing the project.
TEI will be on the production side of things.

Kale were making molds and tooling and locks and simple stuff and all of a sudden emerged as a turbine maker. Same for BMC, they will learn stuff. It only takes willpower to learn.

They ask somebody how he comes up with all those brilliant ideas that make history and he answers "I read a lot", guess who.
 

Anmdt

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TEI will be on the production side of things.
as if it is just a regular company who will be just on "production side of things"
It is really so simple so downgrade TEI's job in a single line. They are the "only company" who can design, manufacture, assemble an engine, a turbine, a turbojet, a turbo shaft. Second comer is Kale.
TRmotor will be the IP holder shell company; designing the engine and managing the project.
The problem emerges here, we still don't know why RR is unrest, is it BMC (owned by Qatari in majority) gets a share on IP rights, SSB or TAI which is in a JV with GE in TEI. Especially it is not viewed good when BMC suddenly is the main actor who will manage the IP rights, even though those are granted to SSB, yet still BMC would have rights or a say the engine, or the knowledge and critical tech of it in the other way around by its manager position in TRMotor.
Note that, UK has no issues with aiding TF-X project which is conducted by TAI where BMC is not involved.
Also note, TRMotor is owned by BMC by %55 ,which is majority of the shares. Guess this example reveals the true matter? Isn't the aircraft itself is a critical tech or valuable know-how as much as the engine?

It took Kale many years to develop KTJ, yet a simple turbojet engine, they have gained enough experience but we are talking about a turbofan for TRMotor, It is obvious how many years we have wasted on Kale so that they can gain experience and meet the requirements, on what is rather simple compared to Turbofan.

Will we wait decades until BMC gains knowledge on Turbofans and watch them-and ignoring them ditching engineers from TEI-TAI-Kale-Alp and watch other critical projects get crippled, so that a freshly founded,stepped in engine business god knows who company gets into the jet engine business?
British engine maker Rolls-Royce has scaled back efforts to join a Turkish programme to build a new fighter jet, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

Talks between Turkey’s Kale Group and Rolls-Royce, ran into problems last year because of a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company, according to the FT report.


Rolls-Royce has all but abandoned efforts to win the bid for the fifth generation fighter aircraft after failing to find a compromise, FT added, citing people familiar with the matter.

In 2017 Kale Group said it would set up a joint venture with Rolls-Royce to develop aircraft engines after Britain and Turkey signed a defence deal worth more than 100 million pounds ($133 million) to develop Turkish fighter jets.


Last year Turkish Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said the door remained open for international engine makers to get involved in Turkey’s TF-X national fighter jet project.

Rolls-Royce did not respond immediately to a request for comment and Kale Group could not be reached for comment.


I'm not very sure on if BMC had not been part of the project, RR would agree. To my knowledge SSB wants to own all the IP rights of the engine. However, RR has problem with that.

I think, SSB is on right course. If we are designing an engine from scratch, we should own all the IP rights, incase we have problems with UK in the future. However, this project should be given to TEI. They proved themselves with TS1400 engine. Real zero to hero situation. It was just a signed paper 5 years ago and we are putting it on a real helicopter. Compare this feat with KaleAero's failure with KTJ3200. Also, Ethem Sancak should look somewhere else to make money. Maybe, Treasury can sell him some land for cheap so that he leaves our engine programs alone.
If it accelerates the progress and reduces the development cost , i don't see any issues with an engine with joint IP rights developed first, with the know-how gained, later we can move on a fully indigenous platform with IP rights owned.
I still believe the major issue is BMC's majority in TRMotor. It doesn't really smell good when a company owns majority of a JV and especially when ,it is the company which the jet engine knowledge and ToT is destined to, and when it is pretty new in engine business without any background and owned by Qatar (armed forces, lets note engine branch of BMC was managed by a Qatari so he will probably have a say in TRMotor).
It might be that SSB, which regulates-oversees TF-X project has request engine manufacturer (in here JV of KALE-RR) to deliver IP rights, knowledge etc to TRMotor. The background is know too little,but there has been official saying of TRMotor would be the hub of various engine types where knowledge and rights collected. Even though it is said that SSTEK (SSB's company) would hold the rights of engines in TRMotor, for the known reason of company profile it might have been doubted, and not assured by SSB.
 
A

adenl

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As if Turkey has the luxury to pick and choose whatever made up company which has very little or with no experience with turbine engines to be heading the development of the most difficult piece of hardware there is.

TEI was and still is the first and only pick in Turkey to head the development of TF-X engine. With or without JV with a foreign company.
 

Zafer

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as if it is just a regular company who will be just on "production side of things"
It is really so simple so downgrade TEI's job in a single line. They are the "only company" who can design, manufacture, assemble an engine, a turbine, a turbojet, a turbo shaft. Second comer is Kale.

The problem emerges here, we still don't know why RR is unrest, is it BMC (owned by Qatari in majority) gets a share on IP rights, SSB or TAI which is in a JV with GE in TEI. Especially it is not viewed good when BMC suddenly is the main actor who will manage the IP rights, even though those are granted to SSB, yet still BMC would have rights or a say the engine, or the knowledge and critical tech of it in the other way around by its manager position in TRMotor.
Note that, UK has no issues with aiding TF-X project which is conducted by TAI where BMC is not involved.
Also note, TRMotor is owned by BMC by %55 ,which is majority of the shares. Guess this example reveals the true matter? Isn't the aircraft itself is a critical tech or valuable know-how as much as the engine?

It took Kale many years to develop KTJ, yet a simple turbojet engine, they have gained enough experience but we are talking about a turbofan for TRMotor, It is obvious how many years we have wasted on Kale so that they can gain experience and meet the requirements, on what is rather simple compared to Turbofan.

Will we wait decades until BMC gains knowledge on Turbofans and watch them-and ignoring them ditching engineers from TEI-TAI-Kale-Alp and watch other critical projects get crippled, so that a freshly founded,stepped in engine business god knows who company gets into the jet engine business?

If it accelerates the progress and reduces the development cost , i don't see any issues with an engine with joint IP rights developed first, with the know-how gained, later we can move on a fully indigenous platform with IP rights owned.
I still believe the major issue is BMC's majority in TRMotor. It doesn't really smell good when a company owns majority of a JV and especially when ,it is the company which the jet engine knowledge and ToT is destined to, and when it is pretty new in engine business without any background and owned by Qatar (armed forces, lets note engine branch of BMC was managed by a, you can not give the secrets of the engine Qatari so he will probably have a say in TRMotor).
It might be that SSB, which regulates-oversees TF-X project has request engine manufacturer (in here JV of KALE-RR) to deliver IP rights, knowledge etc to TRMotor. The background is know too little,but there has been official saying of TRMotor would be the hub of various engine types where knowledge and rights collected. Even though it is said that SSTEK (SSB's company) would hold the rights of engines in TRMotor, for the known reason of company profile it might have been doubted, and not assured by SSB.
TJ3200 is a tiny $25mn project. How many engineers can you hire with that money. TRmotor was over 80 engineers a year ago. GE is the problem here when you want to give design work to TEI, you don't want to give the design details of the engine to GE, they are not like Qataris they will take your secrets and use them against you.
 
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adenl

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TJ3200 is a tiny $25mn project. How many engineers can you hire with that money. TRmotor was over 80 engineers a year ago. GE is the problem here when you wan to give design work to TEI, you don't want to give the design details of the engine to GE, they are not like Qataris they will take your secrets and use them against you.
What secrets are there for an engine to GE? It is one of the premier turbine engine maker in the world.
 

Huelague

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TJ3200 is a tiny $25mn project. How many engineers can you hire with that money. TRmotor was over 80 engineers a year ago. GE is the problem here when you wan to give design work to TEI, you don't want to give the design details of the engine to GE, they are not like Qataris they will take your secrets and use them against you.

You think all intellectual property rights by TEI belongs to GE?
 

Zafer

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What secrets are there for an engine to GE? It is one of the premier turbine engine maker in the world.
Every bit of data point that shows the capabilities of your engine is a piece of information that can be used against you. They will know how the engine will perform under different conditions. Who in his right mind will allow the bully states to know your weaknesses and strengths. Not that they will take it and use it in building their systems. Not at least in the early years.
 

Bogeyman 

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What secrets are there for an engine to GE? It is one of the premier turbine engine maker in the world.
The important thing is not how advanced technology GE has. The important thing is that the secrets of our technology are passed on to the US government. Defense companies never remain just companies.
 

Huelague

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The important thing is not how advanced technology GE has. The important thing is that the secrets of our technology are passed on to the US government. Defense companies never remain just companies.
You know the details of cooperation between GE and TEI?
 

Yasar_TR

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Are you saying RR would give its technology to TRmotor if it was not for BMC who also has a Qatari partner?
As far as I know UK government and Turkey had agreed to cooperate in the building of a 5th generation fighter plane for Turkish airforce. With, then prime minister Theresa May’s signature, BAE Systems and RR and any involved UK entity were instructed to pull all stops in giving know how and help build the plane. This would include the engine too. RR, formed a JV with Kale to produce an engine to power the TFX. The engine would be produced in Turkey by this JV with all it’s rights owned by the JV. Selling the plane carrying this engine or the engine itself only, to third parties would be allowed. But transfer of know how of this engine, to a third party would not be allowed. As BMC’s major shareholder was Qatari, they Would automatically have access to this know how. This, RR was against.
Of course, RR/Kale JV would be selling these engines to Tusas and make money. Just like when TEI sells it’s engines to TR Motor and when they sell it on to Tusas , they both will be making a profit.
 
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Bogeyman 

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British hostility to Qatar consists of paranoia. It is known that Qatar has more than 40 billion pounds of investment in the UK.
 

uzaysan

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British hostility to Qatar consists of paranoia.
And for me, I'm suprised how many turkish members trust qatar. Qatar is just another country. Why are we willingly position qatar into center of everything. What happens if our relations got worse in next 5 years? Whats the diference between "making turkish arm industry dependent on qatar" vs "making turkish arm industry dependent on USA". I say. There isnt any diference. You guy critisize TEI for GM shares. I expect you to say same about TR motor.
 

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And for me, I'm suprised how many turkish members trust qatar. Qatar is just another country. Why are we willingly position qatar into center of everything. What happens if our relations got worse in next 5 years? Whats the diference between "making turkish arm industry dependent on qatar" vs "making turkish arm industry dependent on USA". I say. There isnt any diference. You guy critisize TEI for GM shares. I expect you to say same about TR motor.
you need billions to make jet engine, more than 10-15 billion dollars. Turkey need money and Qatar is there to put it. They will earn money with 55% but all the rights will belong to SSM, like TB2 drone as Bayraktar mentioned
 

uzaysan

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Qatar is there to put it.
Do you have any evidence for that? All projects funded by SSM which means projects funded by my taxes. Not Qatar money. They didnt even made a tank factory and we give our own(tank palet )to them(bmc).

And like @Bogeyman said: They invested 40B pounds to UK. Which is a lot more than they did to us. But UK doesnt make them partner of RR.
 

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