TR Propulsion Systems

[Zoth]

Sorry, my mistake. I meant an aircraft to be used by Turkish air force that did not use US components whose supply could be blocked by US. Are there any European, Russian or Chinese engines that could be used to replace F110 without redesigning KAAN?

Ah gotcha, without redesigning no, but there are F110 equivalent of Russian(AL41) and Chinese(WS-10), there are even better engines than F110 that we may be able to get them(WS-15, comparable to F35 engine, that still falls behind of it a little bit).

You are aware that we are a NATO country as well, right?

And what does that exactly mean? Did that stop them from embargoing our Altay tank engines? Did that stopped them from kicking us from F35 program, or refusing to sell us F16 modernization kits, or Eurofighter sales until recently? I do not trust any nato "allies" at this rate, i'm not saying we should abandon them, but we should always have a back up plan just incase they decide to screw us again.

 

[boredaf]

And what does that exactly mean? Did that stop them from embargoing our Altay tank engines? Did that stopped them from kicking us from F35 program, or refusing to sell us F16 modernization kits, or Eurofighter sales until recently? I do not trust any nato "allies" at this rate, i'm not saying we should abandon them, but we should always have a back up plan just incase they decide to screw us again.

It means there are lines neither we nor other countries would cross. Neither Russia nor China would sell us their engines, especially most advanced ones as long as we are in NATO because that means they will gain first hand knowledge about them. I feel like some of you really don't realise how integrated we are in NATO.

 

[Sanchez]

If Turkiye has a high degree of confidence that it can produce a viable engine for KAAN eventually (of which I have no idea), why not just bite the bullet and procure or assemble a non-US, ITAR-free interim fighter? That would cover for KAAN with TF35000 not being available until the 2040's. Not ideal and while Eurofighter is really expensive to operate, it is still being improved. That seems the least worst option available to me.

If I'm understanding your point correctly, EF-2000 is not ITAR-free either. Turkish procurement re geopolitics is complicated overall. Being a NATO country with embargoes added on top, our procurements solely fall to politics and not blanket bans. If we really want EF-2000s, and seems we do, it'll happen.

 

[Zoth]

It means there are lines neither we nor other countries would cross. Neither Russia nor China would sell us their engines, especially most advanced ones as long as we are in NATO because that means they will gain first hand knowledge about them. I feel like some of you really don't realise how integrated we are in NATO.

Nope, we are well aware of how much integrated we are in NATO, as i said before too, best of worlds would be us getting F110 engines without issues but again our whole topic is about, what will we do if they decide to not give us those engines? While everyone answers on how hard would be for us to get those Russian/Chinese engines, none mentions what are other options are? Is the project going to end up like Altay then?

 

[boredaf]

Nope, we are well aware of how much integrated we are in NATO, as i said before too, best of worlds would be us getting F110 engines without issues but again our whole topic is about, what will we do if they decide to not give us those engines? While everyone answers on how hard would be for us to get those Russian/Chinese engines, none mentions what are other options are? Is the project going to end up like Altay then?

Our only other reasonable option is RR, Russia and Chinese are not. Otherwise, yes, Kaan is going to be delayed until our engine is ready.

 

[Zoth]

Our only other reasonable option is RR, Russia and Chinese are not. Otherwise, yes, Kaan is going to be delayed until our engine is ready.

What option is out there with RR?
If you are talking about EJ200, that engine is designed for smaller and more compact designs, with 20K lbf of thrust, modifying and trying to ugprade/scale that into atleast f110 level would take so much time and cost that it would be better for us to just focus on TF-35K.

If you are talking about collabrating with RR to make a brand new engine, that would even take longer.

Can we even afford to delay the Kaan project that much? I don't know.

 

[boredaf]

What option is out there with RR?
If you are talking about EJ200, that engine is designed for smaller and more compact designs, with 20K lbf of thrust, modifying and trying to ugprade/scale that into atleast f110 level would take so much time and cost that it would be better for us to just focus on TF-35K.

If you are talking about collabrating with RR to make a brand new engine, that would even take longer.

Can we even afford to delay the Kaan project that much? I don't know.

It is not about what we can "afford" or not, it is what our realistic options are. If we get a roadblock from US, our only option is to power through with our own engine, either by ourselves or with a partnership with RR. I don't even count Russian or Chinese engines as options because that would be like cutting off your leg to get a temporary car while waiting for yours to get repaired or something that illogical. Most of our export is to Western countries, we would unnecessarily risk our overall economy while chasing for engines that would neither work as well, nor would even fit the aircraft without extra work.

 

[Spitfire9]

Our only other reasonable option is RR, Russia and Chinese are not. Otherwise, yes, Kaan is going to be delayed until our engine is ready.

I don't know what ToT RR would agree to. How much is required to make TF35000 sufficiently good to be acceptable? A lot? A little? Naive enquiry, I know.

RR is involved with the GCAP engine. I imagine that RR has had the sort of materials/technologies necessary to make a modestly advanced engine for KAAN for a long time.

RR parted company with KAAN engine development years ago, I gather. Was that because Turkiye did not want to pay their price rather than RR refusing outright to the ToT Turkiye wanted? If the problem was price, perhaps that could be re-negotiated.

With other western OEM's out of contention, RR involvement would be the least risky but most expensive route to getting a KAAN engine within 10 years, would it not? I wonder if Turkiye is becoming more aware of the level of uncertainty associated with its TF35000 development timeline.

Just uninformed speculation!

 

[Nilgiri]

It is not about what we can "afford" or not, it is what our realistic options are. If we get a roadblock from US, our only option is to power through with our own engine, either by ourselves or with a partnership with RR. I don't even count Russian or Chinese engines as options because that would be like cutting off your leg to get a temporary car while waiting for yours to get repaired or something that illogical. Most of our export is to Western countries, we would unnecessarily risk our overall economy while chasing for engines that would neither work as well, nor would even fit the aircraft without extra work.

Yes TR has sunk good coin into GE ecosystem at eskisehir and other places w.r.t TEI, TAI etc. It cannot and should not abandon that along with the MRO capacities it has within the Turkish Airforce commited. These are not practical to do 180 turns on.

Turk foreign policy (whatever I and others agree and dont agree with there)...is in a pretty tough situation along with its final size/GDP relative to world powers, but it could have been run a lot better with these things in mind. Inertias in defence sector have to be a primary consideration till you achieve something closer to autarky and can bargain and dictate lot more comfy.

 

[Saithan]

It is not about what we can "afford" or not, it is what our realistic options are. If we get a roadblock from US, our only option is to power through with our own engine, either by ourselves or with a partnership with RR. I don't even count Russian or Chinese engines as options because that would be like cutting off your leg to get a temporary car while waiting for yours to get repaired or something that illogical. Most of our export is to Western countries, we would unnecessarily risk our overall economy while chasing for engines that would neither work as well, nor would even fit the aircraft without extra work.

Yes TR has sunk good coin into GE ecosystem at eskisehir and other places w.r.t TEI, TAI etc. It cannot and should not abandon that along with the MRO capacities it has within the Turkish Airforce commited. These are not practical to do 180 turns on.

Turk foreign policy (whatever I and others agree and dont agree with there)...is in a pretty tough situation along with its final size/GDP relative to world powers, but it could have been run a lot better with these things in mind. Inertias in defence sector have to be a primary consideration till you achieve something closer to autarky and can bargain and dictate lot more comfy.

As you guys have pointed out this is why I consider Hürjet trainer to be of utmost importance over KAAN atm. Because our so called allies would probably not mind selling us 90 engines for trainer jets.

So if we later on, after building them all, should have the need to convert them to LCA (light combat aircraft) and we can do that with minimal work, then we can still fly and wipe our arses, even if just barely.

But like I said earlier, making the LCA, and then asking for senate permission to buy trainer jet engine is going to be much more difficult.

 

[hugh]

But like I said earlier, making the LCA, and then asking for senate permission to buy trainer jet engine is going to be much more difficult.

I think the real difficulty will come when we order F110s for KAAN. The engines for LCA should be easy to acquire. But the MOFOs will drag us through the mud to get our hands on those F110s we desperately need.

 

[Saithan]

I think the real difficulty will come when we order F110s for KAAN. The engines for LCA should be easy to acquire. But the MOFOs will drag us through the mud to get our hands on those F110s we desperately need.

In that case not having a purchase order in place for Hürjet engines is even more mind boggling.

 

[hugh]

In that case not having a purchase order in place for Hürjet engines is even more mind boggling.

the engine order for Hürjet LCA should be made asap. that way we could have a better idea of the likelihood of them denying us KAAN's engines. But either way I don't think we have any alternatives to F110s other than our TF35K.

 

[Spitfire9]

the engine order for Hürjet LCA should be made asap. that way we could have a better idea of the likelihood of them denying us KAAN's engines. But either way I don't think we have any alternatives to F110s other than our TF35K.

What I read from official Turkish sources is that 20 KAAN will be delivered in 2028. For that to be possible, does Turkiye not have to organise engines for them soon? If F110 use in KAAN could be denied, the sooner that is revealed, the sooner that Turkiye can decide on its strategy for KAAN if F110 cannot be used

- carry on alone with TF35000 for as long as it takes (and buy an interim fighter)
- lower the spec of TF35000 to accelerate completion (derated V1, to be followed later by full spec V2)
- call in RR on a consultancy basis to accelerate completion using the current spec engine
- ??

 

[2033]

What I read from official Turkish sources is that 20 KAAN will be delivered in 2028. For that to be possible, does Turkiye not have to organise engines for them soon? If F110 use in KAAN could be denied, the sooner that is revealed, the sooner that Turkiye can decide on its strategy for KAAN if F110 cannot be used

- carry on alone with TF35000 for as long as it takes (and buy an interim fighter)
- lower the spec of TF35000 to accelerate completion (derated V1, to be followed later by full spec V2)
- call in RR on a consultancy basis to accelerate completion using the current spec engine
- ??

A company called TAEC was established with RR-Kale partnership, but I think there has been no progress on that. We have to build this engine completely ourselves.

 

[Saithan]

What I read from official Turkish sources is that 20 KAAN will be delivered in 2028. For that to be possible, does Turkiye not have to organise engines for them soon? If F110 use in KAAN could be denied, the sooner that is revealed, the sooner that Turkiye can decide on its strategy for KAAN if F110 cannot be used

- carry on alone with TF35000 for as long as it takes (and buy an interim fighter)
- lower the spec of TF35000 to accelerate completion (derated V1, to be followed later by full spec V2)
- call in RR on a consultancy basis to accelerate completion using the current spec engine
- ??

As I recall the 20 engines should already have been secured as the amounts acquisitioned were below a certain amount that could be completed without the Senates involvment. But I could be remembering wrongly...

 

[Strong AI]

In that case not having a purchase order in place for Hürjet engines is even more mind boggling.

Already ordered 100 F404 engines in 2023.

HÜRJET için ABD'ye sipariş edilen F404 motor adedi açıklandı

TUSAŞ, HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı için ABD'ye sipariş edilen F404 motoru adedini açıkladı. ABD'li GE şirketine, 100 adet motor sipariş edildi.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I think the real difficulty will come when we order F110s for KAAN. The engines for LCA should be easy to acquire. But the MOFOs will drag us through the mud to get our hands on those F110s we desperately need.

Already ordered.

HÜRJET ve KAAN’ın motoru için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? | SavunmaSanayiST

Milli Muharip Uçak KAAN ve HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı’nın motorları için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? Mehmet Demiroğlu bu soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[hugh]

Already ordered.

HÜRJET ve KAAN’ın motoru için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? | SavunmaSanayiST

Milli Muharip Uçak KAAN ve HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı’nın motorları için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? Mehmet Demiroğlu bu soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

for LCA?

 

[Strong AI]

for LCA?

Dunno

 

[Saithan]

Already ordered 100 F404 engines in 2023.

HÜRJET için ABD'ye sipariş edilen F404 motor adedi açıklandı

TUSAŞ, HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı için ABD'ye sipariş edilen F404 motoru adedini açıkladı. ABD'li GE şirketine, 100 adet motor sipariş edildi.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Already ordered.

HÜRJET ve KAAN’ın motoru için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? | SavunmaSanayiST

Milli Muharip Uçak KAAN ve HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı’nın motorları için ABD’den izin çıkmazsa ne olur? Mehmet Demiroğlu bu soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Sounds very fishy tbh, you don't order 100 engine without a planned production schedule.

Turkish Aerospace, TUSAŞ Engine Industries and GE Aerospace Sign MOU to Extend Collaboration on HÜRJET Advanced Training Jet Program | GE Aerospace News

GE Aerospace F404 turbofan engines would be integrated into the HÜRJET program’s new variants Complementary capabilities among three companies support success of first Turkish-manufactured training jet TEI would assemble, inspect, and test the F404 engines, and provide MRO services FARNBOROUGH...

www.geaerospace.com

While this is from July 2024, and as I see it it's collaboration. I doubt we've ordered 100 engine tbh. If it was the case I expect a non Turkish reliable source would announce it.

Found this

How Turkey's Order of 100 F404 Engines Could Boost India's Tejas Mk1A Deliveries

Turkey's recent move to procure 100 F404 engines for its Hurjet light fighter jet has significant implications for India's Tejas Mk1A program. As both aircraft rely on the same engine family, the increased demand from Turkey could potentially expedite GE Aerospace's production expansion...

defence.in

But I don'tt know if they've just looked at our defense news and continue the same narrative.

Here they say we've formally requested

Turkey Submits Formal Request to Acquire "Hurjet", "KAAN" Fighter Jet Engines from the US

Turkey has reportedly submitted a formal request to the United States to purchase engines for its light fighter jet, "Hurjet," and the fifth-generation fighter jet, "KAAN," currently under development.

defencesecurityasia.com

September 2024