TR Propulsion Systems

[Lonewolf]

As far as released info goes, MHI engine was classed as the top level in terms of attained temperature in 2011 by themselves and many others at the time. Since then information has been released about higher turbine temperatures which I have acknowledged.
If the engine is not capable of sustaining the lifecycle expected from it with confidence, that engine is not ready. We have the examples of Trent-1000 and F135. It is not an issue of delivery time. RR themselves have said it that due to technical problems and slow production rate of these special blades they have a problem of supply. Not just for new engines but new blades for the faulty engines. All 50 BA and 24 Nippon dreamliners have now been grounded.
Quote:
The company faces 1.6 billion pounds ($2 billion) in extra costs and disruption as a result of the engine problem, which is due to the poor durability of components, and the latest delay spells further frustration for its customers and investors.
Unquote.
A total of 46 F35s are on the ground due to engine problems in the US. More than 15% of the current fleet have engine failures.

Rolls-Royce hit by further setback to fixing Boeing 787 engines

Rolls-Royce <RR.L> will take longer than expected to fix problems with its Trent 1000 engine, frustrating efforts to get Boeing <BA.N> 787s grounded by the glitch flying again and knocking the British company's shares.

www.reuters.com

Fifteen Percent Of U.S. Air Force F-35s Don’t Have Working Engines

Marine Corps, Navy, and foreign F-35s are also being impacted by ongoing problems with the jets’ engines.

www.thedrive.com

No one writes here for sake of reply! Anything written has a significance in the eyes of the writer.
F110 is a tested and reliable engine, albeit old school. The 132 version is the one that the Turkish engine company is working on. After the prototypes TFX will fly with these. Initial few squadrons of planes will be 4++ generation with limited stealth characteristics. At a later stage more powerful and developed engines will be used as indigenous engine technology of TEI improves which will be more akin to stealthy operations. This won’t happen until well in to 2030’s. That is the defined timeline of the project.
We are walking before we start running.

Mitsubishi showcase 1800 °c , and plans are for 2000°c at max , meanwhile the latest ACE tested by GE is above 2100°c at max , so your argument don't hold ground , and trent was a first venture of RR in that field but GE don't have issue with blades but other mechanical structure , and they have over exploited the capacity of single crystal blades in f135 , new ceramic matrix composite blades are much better and have higher scope of development .

And I Haven't said that turkey can't develop those engine , i said it will take time and money , and delay may happen . And for the dimensions of the plane , the jet may face issue of being underpowered with f 110 thrust level ,and if you try to increase thrust without increasing pressure and temp ratio ,you will get quite low efficiency and high fuel consumption . J20 problem are similar to the above situation .

I haven't belittled turkey in any statement ,i just showed the scope of problems that lie ahead and how can it affect a project .

Btw tfx Don't have dsi , why ?? It will affect stealth , I think Design isn't finalized yet .

 

[Yasar_TR]

You have a

Mitsubishi showcase 1800 °c , and plans are for 2000°c at max , meanwhile the latest ACE tested by GE is above 2100°c at max , so your argument don't hold ground , and trent was a first venture of RR in that field but GE don't have issue with blades but other mechanical structure , and they have over exploited the capacity of single crystal blades in f135 , new ceramic matrix composite blades are much better and have higher scope of development .

And I Haven't said that turkey can't develop those engine , i said it will take time and money , and delay may happen . And for the dimensions of the plane , the jet may face issue of being underpowered with f 110 thrust level ,and if you try to increase thrust without increasing pressure and temp ratio ,you will get quite low efficiency and high fuel consumption . J20 problem are similar to the above situation .

I haven't belittled turkey in any statement ,i just showed the scope of problems that lie ahead and how can it affect a project .

Btw tfx Don't have dsi , why ?? It will affect stealth , I think Design isn't finalized yet .

You have a very aggressive and argumentative approach to discussions. Please stop this.
We are not here to prove a point. But to learn from each other and expand our knowledge of all things related to defence industry. You seem to be well versed on your knowledge of turbine engine tech.
By using provocative statements like “your argument don’t hold ground” is not the way to conduct discussions.
You were the one that started and used a lot of unsubstantiated stuff on what Turkish engine industry can do and can’t do.
If MHI is now developing turbines with even higher temperatures than in 2011, good for them. But we have only your word for that. If you could support what you say with sources, than it would be more believable.
GE do not produce F135. It is produced by P&W. The way you have worded your statement sounds as if f135 is produced by GE. GE, with RR produced F136. But it was not chosen for F35.
As much as the engine, the airframe plays a big part in the design of a fighter plane. Just check out Grippen engine; F414GE variant VolvoRM12, has a 12000lbf dry thrust with 18100lbf afterburner thrust. Yet it is very agile and flies at 2 Mach. Because the airframe is sleek efficient and responsive.
So don’t judge a plane”s performance just with it’s engine power.
F110 may be old school. But it is being revised and upgraded continuously. The new f110GE132EFE is being offered with a thrust of 34000lbf. In the right airframe it could be good enough. I had rather use this than a problematic F119 with 35000lbf or a F135 with 39000lbf.

(PDF) F110GE132: Enhanced Power Through Low-Risk Derivative Technology

PDF | The F110-GE-132, originally referred to as the F110-GE-129 EFE (Enhanced Fighter Engine), presently undergoing qualification testing, is being... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Diverterless Supersonic Inlet, may or may not be used in the TFX. BAE and Turkish design crew have been carrying out wind tunnel tests and have been perfecting the design of the inlet accordingly. From current pictures and mock-up there seems to be no such bump. But they have already cut certain parts of the fuselage and we will see when the first prototype rolls out in March2023 if and why! There is a lot of secrecy around what is being done at the factory.

 

[Lonewolf]

You have a

You have a very aggressive and argumentative approach to discussions. Please stop this.
We are not here to prove a point. But to learn from each other and expand our knowledge of all things related to defence industry. You seem to be well versed on your knowledge of turbine engine tech.
By using provocative statements like “your argument don’t hold ground” is not the way to conduct discussions.
You were the one that started and used a lot of unsubstantiated stuff on what Turkish engine industry can do and can’t do.
If MHI is now developing turbines with even higher temperatures than in 2011, good for them. But we have only your word for that. If you could support what you say with sources, than it would be more believable.
GE do not produce F135. It is produced by P&W. The way you have worded your statement sounds as if f135 is produced by GE. GE, with RR produced F136. But it was not chosen for F35.
As much as the engine, the airframe plays a big part in the design of a fighter plane. Just check out Grippen engine; F414GE variant VolvoRM12, has a 12000lbf dry thrust with 18100lbf afterburner thrust. Yet it is very agile and flies at 2 Mach. Because the airframe is sleek efficient and responsive.
So don’t judge a plane”s performance just with it’s engine power.
F110 may be old school. But it is being revised and upgraded continuously. The new f110GE132EFE is being offered with a thrust of 34000lbf. In the right airframe it could be good enough. I had rather use this than a problematic F119 with 35000lbf or a F135 with 39000lbf.

(PDF) F110GE132: Enhanced Power Through Low-Risk Derivative Technology

PDF | The F110-GE-132, originally referred to as the F110-GE-129 EFE (Enhanced Fighter Engine), presently undergoing qualification testing, is being... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Diverterless Supersonic Inlet, may or may not be used in the TFX. BAE and Turkish design crew have been carrying out wind tunnel tests and have been perfecting the design of the inlet accordingly. From current pictures and mock-up there seems to be no such bump. But they have already cut certain parts of the fuselage and we will see when the first prototype rolls out in March2023 if and why! There is a lot of secrecy around what is being done at the factory.

So you have problem with way of my communication , well...... It's been a while i heard it from someone .

I meant the f 136 , soory for mis typing , after f 35 engine competition they launched a partnership with RR for ceramic composite matrix blades (top of the line tech , most expensive to develop , best in the world ) .

After completion of first phase , RR was out GE undertook rest of journey alone to develop those blades , recently tested in their adaptive cycle engine .

Yes aircraft design plays a major role but fifth gen burds are inherently less aerodynamic , so if stealth is there , aerodynamic will be affected , design like kfx and f 22 and f 35 are not much aerodynamic , f 22 compensate it with humongous dry thrust , f 35 is not so agile due to its approach . Also addition of tvc exhaust improve manuverability , is you get it with f110 then it will serve the purpose but if it don't get it ,then manuverability will require more thrust .

Aircraft is huge in its current configuration , they should have gone for a smaller bird as turkey don't need to attack too far off lands , and drop tanks can be used in peacetime .

Design looks good , but due to being bigger it will be more difficult to develop , smaller platform have more option at disposal for various subsystem , larger one don't .

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Ismail Demir: "At least, getting the engines of the prototype and then a certain number of serial produced TfX's engines from off the shelf made our process easier. Gas turbine engine development doesn't contain only one project. Starting from the small level, the development of engines continues. We went on this journey. What we learn in the intermediate step on the journey provides us with important information. After that, it will be to work and introduce the product. You will see other engines in the meantime, and these will show where we are going on the National Combat Aircraft as the harbinger of the future."

 

[Yasar_TR]

So you have problem with way of my communication , well...... It's been a while i heard it from someone .

I meant the f 136 , soory for mis typing , after f 35 engine competition they launched a partnership with RR for ceramic composite matrix blades (top of the line tech , most expensive to develop , best in the world ) .

After completion of first phase , RR was out GE undertook rest of journey alone to develop those blades , recently tested in their adaptive cycle engine .

Yes aircraft design plays a major role but fifth gen burds are inherently less aerodynamic , so if stealth is there , aerodynamic will be affected , design like kfx and f 22 and f 35 are not much aerodynamic , f 22 compensate it with humongous dry thrust , f 35 is not so agile due to its approach . Also addition of tvc exhaust improve manuverability , is you get it with f110 then it will serve the purpose but if it don't get it ,then manuverability will require more thrust .

Aircraft is huge in its current configuration , they should have gone for a smaller bird as turkey don't need to attack too far off lands , and drop tanks can be used in peacetime .

Design looks good , but due to being bigger it will be more difficult to develop , smaller platform have more option at disposal for various subsystem , larger one don't .

I agree with you on the size of the plane. We should have gone for a twin engined but smaller plane. Especially as it was our first shot at a stealth jet. BAE suggested the same with 2 x EJ200 (23000lbf) class engines possibly with their TVC version.
But our guys insisted on a larger platform. Of course with it comes the problems. BAE again suggested a new engine in 27000lbf range based on EJ200 but a bit larger. But it was not what was wanted. So we ended up with this larger plane.
To achieve full stealth like f22 or f35 or come close to, will take some time. They know this. That is why they openly admit that the first few squadrons will be 4++ generation planes.

 

[Nilgiri]

Aircraft is huge in its current configuration , they should have gone for a smaller bird as turkey don't need to attack too far off lands , and drop tanks can be used in peacetime .

Design looks good , but due to being bigger it will be more difficult to develop , smaller platform have more option at disposal for various subsystem , larger one don't .

Range is not the only thing....it is also converted into loiter time if needed for various other mission profiles. 5th gen especially will be critical to lurk + ambush mode that rewards such buffer.

It is also better to start with larger envelope and whittle it down (if expedient to the pragmatic dev route a bit later).

This is done more readily than other way around (trying to grow something larger from smaller basis) given how things cascade and the various sensitivity analysis for performance and weight.

Tejas suffered because it started too small from get go....it should have been mk2 size from beginning....engine sanctions would not have been as detrimental of an effect on its schedule....and then figuring out later we really needed mk2 size anyway.

 

[Lonewolf]

Range is not the only thing....it is also converted into loiter time if needed for various other mission profiles. 5th gen especially will be critical to lurk + ambush mode that rewards such buffer.

It is also better to start with larger envelope and whittle it down (if expedient to the pragmatic dev route a bit later).

This is done more readily than other way around (trying to grow something larger from smaller basis) given how things cascade and the various sensitivity analysis for performance and weight.

Tejas suffered because it started too small from get go....it should have been mk2 size from beginning....engine sanctions would not have been as detrimental of an effect on its schedule....and then figuring out later we really needed mk2 size anyway.

Agree on size but isn't medium.weight the sweet spot for development , can have all the tech required in it at the same time , these designs if.strated clean sheet gives room for later making a bigger design out of them , our amca is 17 meter , but design modification if done won't be too tough to make a design based on it for 19 meter long jet in f 22 class . But that's not priority and shouldn't be .


In respect to tfx , it has enough room for system , but f110 will not be able to test all at once , the indigenous engine not only needs to be high thrust but should also be more power generating .

RR and mitsubishi can help in that except american (sanction ) . RR especially developed a generator integrated in core ,so that space can be saved and efficient process can be achieved , mitsubishi proved its capabilities in xf 9

 

[Combat-Master]

Some information of TS1400, the accessory gearbox was a co-development with a company from Japan. The IP rights of the accessory gearbox are held by TEI.

At the same time, TEI is working with ALPHavacilik of Turkey to nationalise the accessory gearbox and bring the production to Turkey. The first ALP Havacilik Accessory gearbox will be tested within the next few months.

TEI hopes to certify the TS1400 civil engine in the first quarter of 2025

 

[Combat-Master]

Some information on T700-TEI-701D. 45 engines were produced thus far under license. As the engine is produced under license by TEI, there is a certain amount of developments and modifications they can do to the engine. Hence the additive manufacturing of the mid-frame of the engine, making it thus far the second company to have manufactured such a part after GE with their CT7 engine.

T700-TEI-701D Mid-Frame | 330 parts to 1

GE CT-7 Mid-Frame | 300 parts to 1

 

[Bogeyman]

Idealab turbojet engine prototypes

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429523643877429257

 

[Bogeyman]

GE Marine looks to boost collaboration with Turkey​

Naval engines manufacturer GE Marine announced on 18 August that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkey's TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) covering GE Marine's LM2500 and LM500 gas turbine engines.

Under the terms of the MoU, the two companies will work on potentially localising work for the two engine types, which could include the manufacture, assembly, test, inspection, maintenance, repair, and overhaul of those engines used in Turkey and on exported vessels.

Steve Rogers, EMEA business development and sales director for GE Marine, said that the company hoped the MoU would help “to discover other opportunities for TEI to play a critical role in supporting the Turkish shipbuilding industry in partnership with GE Marine”.

TEI hopes that the collaboration agreement will allow the firm to become an approved and certified OEM service provider to Turkey's marine engines. Furthermore, the work will allow for the Turkish firm to achieve localisation in a range of areas such as engine design, component manufacturing, and assembly, integration, and test of the LM2500 and LM500 engines. Turkish companies will also have the opportunity to be integrated in the supply chain for the Turkish engines.

The LM2500 engine is fitted on the Turkish Navy's MILGEM corvettes. Pakistan is also a customer for the MILGEM corvette, with the first vessel being launched on 15 August. GE Marine is hoping to pitch the LM2500 engine for Turkey's TF2000 air warfare destroyer programme, and the LM500 for the Fast Attack Craft programme.

GE Marine looks to boost collaboration with Turkey

Naval engines manufacturer GE Marine announced on 18 August that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkey's TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) covering...

www.janes.com

 

[Cabatli_TR]

GE Marine looks to boost collaboration with Turkey​

Naval engines manufacturer GE Marine announced on 18 August that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkey's TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) covering GE Marine's LM2500 and LM500 gas turbine engines.

Under the terms of the MoU, the two companies will work on potentially localising work for the two engine types, which could include the manufacture, assembly, test, inspection, maintenance, repair, and overhaul of those engines used in Turkey and on exported vessels.

Steve Rogers, EMEA business development and sales director for GE Marine, said that the company hoped the MoU would help “to discover other opportunities for TEI to play a critical role in supporting the Turkish shipbuilding industry in partnership with GE Marine”.

TEI hopes that the collaboration agreement will allow the firm to become an approved and certified OEM service provider to Turkey's marine engines. Furthermore, the work will allow for the Turkish firm to achieve localisation in a range of areas such as engine design, component manufacturing, and assembly, integration, and test of the LM2500 and LM500 engines. Turkish companies will also have the opportunity to be integrated in the supply chain for the Turkish engines.

The LM2500 engine is fitted on the Turkish Navy's MILGEM corvettes. Pakistan is also a customer for the MILGEM corvette, with the first vessel being launched on 15 August. GE Marine is hoping to pitch the LM2500 engine for Turkey's TF2000 air warfare destroyer programme, and the LM500 for the Fast Attack Craft programme.

GE Marine looks to boost collaboration with Turkey

Naval engines manufacturer GE Marine announced on 18 August that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Turkey's TUSAS Engine Industries (TEI) covering...

www.janes.com

I think this is one of the most important deal for TEI. Being aware of the multiplicity of Turkey's naval projects, GE Marine does not want to lose a large market by transferring the technology related to marine propulsion systems to its partner in Türkiye. BTW, Turkey is taking steps to produce the Ukrainian solution in Turkey and integrating it to Turkish warships. GE Marine wants to overcome the sanctions by transferin the production of marine gas turbines to TEI. Meanwhile, TEI will acquire very critical technologies and hold the sales rights.

 

[Zafer]

I think this is one of the most important deal for TEI. Being aware of the multiplicity of Turkey's naval projects, GE Marine does not want to lose a large market by transferring the technology related to marine propulsion systems to its partner in Türkiye. BTW, Turkey is taking steps to produce the Ukrainian solution in Turkey and integrating it to Turkish warships. GE Marine wants to overcome the sanctions by transferin the production of marine gas turbines to TEI. Meanwhile, TEI will acquire very critical technologies and hold the sales rights.

We have to make our marine engine cooperation with Ukraine bear fruit lest GE deal have conditions to sanction our export customers.

 

[Quasar]

Frankly speaking Ukrainan engine solutions are only good for saving the day in the short term however, whether we like it or not We have to admit the very fact that TEI could not have its current capabilities without GE. İf GE Marine wants to overcome potential sanctions by transfering some of the production of marine gas turbines to TEI as @Cabatli_53 stated or any collaboration in marine gas turbines is simply a crazy news and may have very important implications for the future.

 

[Anmdt]

I think this is one of the most important deal for TEI. Being aware of the multiplicity of Turkey's naval projects, GE Marine does not want to lose a large market by transferring the technology related to marine propulsion systems to its partner in Türkiye. BTW, Turkey is taking steps to produce the Ukrainian solution in Turkey and integrating it to Turkish warships. GE Marine wants to overcome the sanctions by transferin the production of marine gas turbines to TEI. Meanwhile, TEI will acquire very critical technologies and hold the sales rights.

This is very important, it means the dependency on maintenance will also be lifted and by time GE will able to produce the spare parts.

 

[Zafer]

Frankly speaking Ukrainan engine solutions are good for saving the day in the short term however, whether we like it or not We have to admit the very fact that TEI could not have its current capabilities without GE. İf GE Marine wants to overcome potential sanctions by transfering some of the production of marine gas turbines to TEI as @Cabatli_53 stated or any collaboration in marine gas turbines is simple a crazy news and may have very important implications for the future.

They wouldn't, but even then we can start from scratch and get to a satisfactory state before too long as our engineering prowess is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Yasar_TR]

In terms of quiet running and performance nothing come close to GE marine gas-turbines. RR may be a good choice but their turbines are expensive.
This deal will make it cheaper for us to produce these and will eliminate any difficulties we may have in acquiring them in the future.
This is a deal made in heaven for our naval platforms.

 

[TheInsider]

Ukrainian aero-derivative marine engines are a viable alternative. LM2500 and LM500 are no doubt the best but it is not critical as in the aircraft development. Aircraft have limited space and you are flying and should achieve a certain aerodynamic performance. You want the best performance, best fuel efficiency because aircraft can carry a limited weight and you want to be mission-ready every time. The worst thing that can happen to a destroyer is to design a bigger fuel tank or it can have a slightly lower range with the same fuel load. You have a vast space. Ships don't need to be combat-ready at every time. Ships go under a cycle of maintenance every year or two. Most of the time you won't even turn on gas turbines and travel with diesel engines at 15-16 knots travel speed.

UGT 25000 | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE Vernova's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE Vernova's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

 

[Zafer]

Ukrainian aero-derivative marine engines are a viable alternative. LM2500 and LM500 are no doubt the best but it is not critical as in the aircraft development. Aircraft have limited space and you are flying and should achieve a certain aerodynamic performance. You want the best performance, best fuel efficiency because aircraft can carry a limited weight and you want to be mission-ready every time. The worst thing that can happen to a destroyer is to design a bigger fuel tank or it can have a slightly lower range with the same fuel load. You have a vast space. Ships don't need to be combat-ready at every time. Ships go under a cycle of maintenance every year or two. Most of the time you won't even turn on gas turbines and travel with diesel engines at 15-16 knots travel speed.

UGT 25000 | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE Vernova's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE Vernova's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

Ukrainian engines have 36% whereas GE has 38% efficiency.
Edit: GE claims 38.5%

GAS TURBINE UNITS FOR SURFACE SHIPS | GTR&DC «Zorya»-«Mashproekt»

zmturbines.com

 

[nakaFH]

We should not leave working with Ukrainians for aero-derivative marine engines even if GE owned licenced production permited.
Ukrainian engines may not be best effective ones but Ukrainians better partner than Americans.