TR Propulsion Systems

[Bürküt]

I think it won't take that long this time. Since the TEI TS-1400 turboshaft engine will be powered manned helicopters, preparation for the first flight and ground tests took a long time. Our test pilots could have died in a possible engine failure.

Since the TEI TF-6000 turbofan engine will be used primarily in drones, it will be immediately installed on the drones for testing as soon as the engine produces sufficient thrust on the ground. Because this time there will be no test pilot whose life will be in danger.

Or we can use it on a multiple engine passenger aircraft as a flying test bed.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Or we can use it on a multiple engine passenger aircraft as a flying test bed.

I think drones are more suitable. In this way, both the drone and the engine can be developed simultaneously in coordination with each other.

 

[Bürküt]

I think drones are more suitable. In this way, both the drone and the engine can be developed simultaneously in coordination with each other.

However, you do not want to lose both the new engine prototype and the Unmanned fighter jet prototype in case of a possible engine failure at the first tests.But generally I agree with you.Unmanned aerial vehicles will be a great multiplier in terms of accumulating large flight hours and rapid progress in tests after the first trials.

 

[fushkee]

There will be qualification and certification procedures. I guess, Qualification is enough for military purposes and certification is necessary for civil uses. Gokbey had to have both of them.
At the very first, qualification will be faster than other procedures and i think it will be mounted to drones such as KE and Anka-3

 

[Zafer]

TS1400 had gone through 8 rebuilding iterations AFAIK, that's why the TF6000 being the first prototype has many more iterations to go through. However, with experience gained from previous design work, the steps may be progressed somewhat faster.

 

[TheInsider]

Mr. Akşit doesn't want to give a date because they are pushing insanely hard for 29.10.2023, the 100th anniversary of the republic. The chances are slim but the team is pushing hard. If no delay happens in the accessories' delivery and integration, the first ignition might be attempted. The first ignition will be done before the year's end unless a really big problem appears.

 

[B_A]

Mr. Akşit doesn't want to give a date because they are pushing insanely hard for 29.10.2023, the 100th anniversary of the republic. The chances are slim but the team is pushing hard. If no delay happens in the accessories' delivery and integration, the first ignition might be attempted. The first ignition will be done before the year's end unless a really big problem appears.

I think we always very cautious to our dometic weapon or engine.(Maybe Bayraktar a bit different that seems they always very early to introduce new systems)Always spend years to test or developt.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1707462312943091870

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1707824157969277184

Havacılık Teknolojileri ve Gaz Türbinleri
TEİ Şef mühendisi

He said that Turkey currently has the capacity to produce a turbofan engine at the F-110 level if it wishes.

 

[Oublious]

He said that Turkey currently has the capacity to produce a turbofan engine at the F-110 level if it wishes.

un var seker var yapsana helvayi..


you have flour and sugar make the helva...

 

[Bogeyman]

un var seker var yapsana helvayi..


you have flour and sugar make the helva...

He also said that more advanced technologies need to be studied to produce more powerful engines.

 

[Rooxbar]

un var seker var yapsana helvayi..


you have flour and sugar make the helva...

Mesele o zaten, şeker yok diyor devlete; şekeri (para) bana vereceksiniz.

He's trying to signal to higher-ups that they should trust in TEI and allocate the required budgets to start the work. He's obviously gonna say that, and KALE are going to argue against it obviously. The state cannot just put all their eggs in the baskets of one person's confidence and claims. There's no guarantee that the claim is credible to give the tender without preliminary studies and proof of competence. But they are taking long, which signals to me that they don't have full trust in TEI, yet. Maybe that will change after TF6k first ignition, hopefully.

 

[uçuyorum]

He said that Turkey currently has the capacity to produce a turbofan engine at the F-110 level if it wishes.

Man I hate such things being on spaces, and they didn’t even record it

 

[MADDOG]

That should be pressure, as in we are under pressure to get it done.

Sorry

 

[Yasar_TR]

We need to clarify few points regarding the two engines that TEI is building at the moment.
1. The TF6K is what TEI is aiming to fire up before the end of the year. That is an engine specifically designed for subsonic flight. It should develop around 6000lbf thrust once matured, having gone though a series of updates and improvements.
2. The TF10K is the real McCoy. It is the afterburner version of the TF6K. It should give a sudden thrust augmentation of plus 4000lbf to the TF6K to be used for supersonic flight, sudden requirement of additional thrust and for emergency situations. This amount of sudden jolt of thrust can crush a normal TF6K. A lot of parts that are produced as optimised for subsonic flight, will not be able to withstand this sudden jolt. Therefore the TF10K will have to be built to withstand this sudden extra level of thrust too.
As KAAN engines will be with afterburners, the TF10K is also an important milestone TEI has to overcome yet.

In order to achieve continuous sustained supersonic flight the engines’ nozzle design is most important. We have all heard Dr Aksit mentioning CD nozzles (Convergent/Divergent) . To understand this better one needs to look at the coarse representation of a “Laval-Nozzle”

Here we have hot air exiting turbine where the yellow area is. The air is “converged” and constricted/choked at the throat to a high pressure to adjust mass flow rate. Before the throat the air flow is subsonic. At the throat the speed of air flow is Mach 1. But as it leaves the throat the air is released and gains speed. It becomes supersonic. This supersonic flow, thrusts the engine and the plane in the opposite direction towards supersonic speeds. By adjusting the throat convergence angle and also the opening angles of the divergence and the area of divergent nozzle, you can adjust the optimum state with which you can achieve supersonic flight.

An adjustable convergent only engine can allow a plane to reach intermittent low supersonic flight speeds. But not sustainable speeds. And not high supersonic speeds anyway. For that you need the divergence.

An F16 engine’s divergent nozzle wide open

An F16 engine with an adjustable divergent nozzle

So when Dr Aksit says that they are being asked to achieve the impossible, he is not far off the truth. There is a lot of work that needs to be done before TF35K is ready. The colossal task he has undertaken is very apparent. But as a professional he must have somehow agreed to it if he did not think the goal was attainable.

 

[Saithan]

We need to clarify few points regarding the two engines that TEI is building at the moment.
1. The TF6K is what TEI is aiming to fire up before the end of the year. That is an engine specifically designed for subsonic flight. It should develop around 6000lbf thrust once matured, having gone though a series of updates and improvements.
2. The TF10K is the real McCoy. It is the afterburner version of the TF6K. It should give a sudden thrust augmentation of plus 4000lbf to the TF6K to be used for supersonic flight, sudden requirement of additional thrust and for emergency situations. This amount of sudden jolt of thrust can crush a normal TF6K. A lot of parts that are produced as optimised for subsonic flight, will not be able to withstand this sudden jolt. Therefore the TF10K will have to be built to withstand this sudden extra level of thrust too.
As KAAN engines will be with afterburners, the TF10K is also an important milestone TEI has to overcome yet.

In order to achieve continuous sustained supersonic flight the engines’ nozzle design is most important. We have all heard Dr Aksit mentioning CD nozzles (Convergent/Divergent) . To understand this better one needs to look at the coarse representation of a “Laval-Nozzle”
View attachment 61821
Here we have hot air exiting turbine where the yellow area is. The air is “converged” and constricted/choked at the throat to a high pressure to adjust mass flow rate. Before the throat the air flow is subsonic. At the throat the speed of air flow is Mach 1. But as it leaves the throat the air is released and gains speed. It becomes supersonic. This supersonic flow, thrusts the engine and the plane in the opposite direction towards supersonic speeds. By adjusting the throat convergence angle and also the opening angles of the divergence and the area of divergent nozzle, you can adjust the optimum state with which you can achieve supersonic flight.

An adjustable convergent only engine can allow a plane to reach intermittent low supersonic flight speeds. But not sustainable speeds. And not high supersonic speeds anyway. For that you need the divergence.
View attachment 61823

An F16 engine’s divergent nozzle wide open


View attachment 61824


An F16 engine with an adjustable divergent nozzle
View attachment 61825

So when Dr Aksit says that they are being asked to achieve the impossible, he is not far off the truth. There is a lot of work that needs to be done before TF35K is ready. The colossal task he has undertaken is very apparent. But as a professional he must have somehow agreed to it if he did not think the goal was attainable.

But doesn’t the engine designed atm already handle a speed close to what F-4 engines handle. So the difference up to super sonic would require huge heat resistance from the materials.

I know we can’t directly compare thrust with speed. But arouns wht speed would TF6K be able to handle on something lile Hurjet ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

But doesn’t the engine designed atm already handle a speed close to what F-4 engines handle. So the difference up to super sonic would require huge heat resistance from the materials.

I know we can’t directly compare thrust with speed. But arouns wht speed would TF6K be able to handle on something lile Hurjet ?

First of all, F4 engine is a turbojet engine. This is not a matter of what speed engines can handle. That is more complex subject which needs airframe design to be taken in to consideration too.
To answer your question; NO! TF10K is not at the same thrust level as the J-79 engine powering F4 planes. J-79, develops just under 120000lbf dry thrust with nearly 18000lbf in wet. In other words twice more powerful as TF6K/TF10K

F4 engine too, when pushing the plane to supersonic speeds, would have to use divergent nozzles.

To fly Hurjet, we would need two of the TF10K engines installed.

 

[Saithan]

First of all, F4 engine is a turbojet engine. This is not a matter of what speed engines can handle. That is more complex subject which needs airframe design to be taken in to consideration too.
To answer your question; NO! TF10K is not at the same thrust level as the J-79 engine powering F4 planes. J-79, develops just under 120000lbf dry thrust with nearly 18000lbf in wet. In other words twice more powerful as TF6K/TF10K

F4 engine too, when pushing the plane to supersonic speeds, would have to use divergent nozzles.

To fly Hurjet, we would need two of the TF10K engines installed.

View attachment 61829

Ok so to sum it up (roughly)TF6K is currently delivers thrust enough to power an UAV like Akinci who doesn’t go super sonic.

I was certain that F-4 had cruise speed below 1M and only goes super sonic with afterburner.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ok so to sum it up (roughly)TF6K is currently delivers thrust enough to power an UAV like Akinci who doesn’t go super sonic.

I was certain that F-4 had cruise speed below 1M and only goes super sonic with afterburner.

You are still stuck on speed. It has nothing to do with speed. F4 , if at a high enough altitude can super cruise. It has done it. The Israelis even used a version they called “ Super-Phantom” that went supersonic without afterburners.

TF6K is an overkill for Akinci. Also Akinci just can not handle the thrust levels this engine can generate. Aerodynamically it is also NOT compatible. Even a turboprop version of TF6K would be 4 times too much for Akinci. TF6K will be ideal for Anka3 and KE.

Almost all fighter jets cruise at subsonic speeds. Even at super cruise they use too much fuel. With afterburners they drink fuel. So whenever possible they fly subsonic. F4 is the fastest plane we have in the fleet. It still holds almost a record altitude flight level of 98557 feet!

 

[Saithan]

I can’t help it. It’s my logical mind that says how the relation between flow of mass divided by time should be equivalent to speed.

and constant thrust of 6K should be equivalent to a speed an object.

assuming the airframe can handle the thrust.

it should be possible to calculate speed under the assumption of ideal conditions