Defence Q&A S-400 or F-35 for Turkey ? |Debate and Discussion

[what]

Another embarassing and probably futile step by Hulusi Akar in Hürriyet. He proposed a Cyprus-Crete S300 kind of scenario to solve the S400 issue. The government fucked up so bad, they are now offering putting the 2bln € system somewhere else, in another place to get rid of the sanctions and access to F35.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359050404454137856

 

[bartre]

S400 was a dumb dumb decision. Gained no leverage with the US and lost Turkey leverage against Russia since Russia exploited the rift to openly kill Turkish fighters. While ak party were trying to "convince" people it was assad, the Russians then showed the strike on live TV to insult erdogan even more. Thank Allah our army got moving in idlib, otherwise erdogan would have yet again brought our nation "great shame". Fortunately since that Russian strike on Turkish soldiers, the Russians paid a heavy price for it in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan.

But you know whats dumber? Running back to the US. You buy that s400 knowing you will never look to buy another American fighter jet again. Otherwise the americans will utilise your desperation and stupidity against you. This is whats happening to erdogan right now.

Weapons are sold to Turkey to control her actions, erdogan and ak party lost sight of this. The americans don't sell Turkey F35 because they want Turkey to be strong, they sell them so they can influence and control Turkey.

Once you made that dumb decision to buy trash russian air defence systems, you stick with it. You say to the Americans look either you give us the shit we paid for or we are going somewhere else. No if's no but's.

That way if they are going to sell it you they will, if they are not then you are not dragging a dead horse. As it is now they are exploiting erdogans panic for maximum gains.

It constantly shocks me how terrible ak party politics are. At least we have moved on from the really dumb davutoglu days where everything was a failure, but we are still pretty bad. Still makes me laugh that the clown davutoglu was made PM by erdogan, only putting his stupid son in law in charge of the economy was worse.

the enemy will always lay traps along your path, if you are wise you will avoid them. If you are stupid you will step into them and then say "see i told you he was the enemy".

Since when the S-400 is russian trash?

It's literally the best equip u would have to defend your skies, top notch tecnology.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Since when the S-400 is russian trash?

It's literally the best equip u would have to defend your skies, top notch tecnology.

Yes of course it is. Just like Pantsir systems were the best in her class. Russian air defence were claimed to be the best in the world. We Turks put an end to that Russian myth in 3 theatres including Pantsir systems directly operated by russian wagner terrorists.

Then there is also the question that you really trust the Russians? The same guys who are opposing Turkey in every theatre? Whether it be libya, syria, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Central Asia etc?

You trust that when a serious war comes that the Russian hardware will do as advertised?

Madness.

 

[GoatsMilk]

A cheap Turkish made drone humiliated Russian air defences.

 

[akrepon]

Yes of course it is. Just like Pantsir systems were the best in her class. Russian air defence were claimed to be the best in the world. We Turks put an end to that Russian myth in 3 theatres including Pantsir systems directly operated by russian wagner terrorists.

Then there is also the question that you really trust the Russians? The same guys who are opposing Turkey in every theatre? Whether it be libya, syria, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Central Asia etc?

You trust that when a serious war comes that the Russian hardware will do as advertised?

Madness.

I think it is more about an insurance policy for a while to gain some time to prepare to what is coming and you know what is coming... I am sure as we speak our engineers are working hard to come up with our own long range air defence system. When it is done, we won't be having any issues. They'll think twice by then.

 

[guest12]

A cheap Turkish made drone humiliated Russian air defences.

There is no guarantee ending for Western AA systems would be any different.Swarm MALE UAV SEAD concept rather new for everyone.Not the mention all AA systems uses missiles have same inherit weakness : Their ready to fire missiles(in canisters) numbers can only be limited , you throw enough decoys long enough and you will overhelm any missile/ammunition based AA system.Until energy based(laser) systems became a thing this inherit weakness still stay same for all missile/ammunition based AA systems.As they say best defence is good offense.


Of course Pantsir itself has a big weakness.The fact its missiles are can only guided by vehicle itself as they dont posses any type of seeker so it makes those missile easy to divert by cutting commucation between Pantsir vehicle and missile with EW.

 

[the]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360636055360315394

Our Defense Industry Presidency is in contact with America for the purchase of Patriot.
- Hulusi Akar

 

[Yasar_TR]

A cheap Turkish made drone humiliated Russian air defences.

There are many videos of Tb2 hitting pantsir, OSA, BUK, tanks etc. But only a Harop hitting an S300 radar. Azerbaijan says they used tb2 twice to hit S300. But I could not find a video to prove it.
If what they say is true, the S400 system we bought could go to the junkyard apart from the missiles. The missiles are a different world. They are far ahead of anything else available to us.
But logic dictates that if BUK and Pansir can be hit by tb2, it should be able to hit S300 too!
Same Russian junk!?!?

 

[Ardabas34]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360636055360315394

Our Defense Industry Presidency is in contact with America for the purchase of Patriot.
- Hulusi Akar

Disappointing tbh. Though we dont know the entire frame of the deal. Maybe they will give F-35s and cut their support for YPG. Bah, who am I kidding?

 

[Turko]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360636055360315394

Our Defense Industry Presidency is in contact with America for the purchase of Patriot.
- Hulusi Akar

Thumbs up

 

[Oublious]

S400 means a lot of less fly hours for our F16, it was a urgent needs.

 

[the]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362098728845205504

NATO: We have offered Turkey alternative radar systems to the Russian S-400 system.

Patriot? SAMP-T?

 

[Sinan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362098728845205504

NATO: We have offered Turkey alternative radar systems to the Russian S-400 system.

Patriot? SAMP-T?

Random twitter account ?

Is there a credible source for this?

 

[the]

Random twitter account ?

Is there a credible source for this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362102010435280896

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362103240985350147

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362096179643895819

 

[Sinan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362102010435280896

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362103240985350147

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362096179643895819

Anymore, source from anybody. Al-Arabiya is not a very reliable source.

I'm watching below video, if i find something i will tell.

Edit: Nothing. seems like Al-Arabiya is trolling.

 

[the]

Anymore, source from anybody. Al-Arabiya is not a very reliable source.

I'm watching below video, if i find something i will tell.

Edit: Nothing. seems like Al-Arabiya is trolling.

You might be right, i think Stoltenberg suggested it would be better to buy a Patriot or SAMP-T instead of the S-400.

 

[Yasar_TR]

You might be right, i think Stoltenberg suggested it would be better to buy a Patriot or SAMP-T instead of the S-400.

He actually said that they did not discuss this lately. But he said that he had previously suggested that purchasing of patriot or Sampt system instead of the S400 would have been a better choice.

 

[Ardabas34]

They will never give us neither the patriots nor the F-35s. US completely sees us as enemies and has sworn to keep us without arms. They want full air domination over us. Getting the S400's was a complete slap on their face. We did very good by it. Imagine if we didnt have S400s. Our only air defense ability was flying jets ourselves and now with F-35s and stuff we would remain completely defenseless. Gulenists in the army shot down Russian jet just to create conflict with Russia. Boy their plans backfired so good! Putin proved to be smarter and agreed to sell the S400s and cooperate with Turkey. It has basically been US' nightmare.
Turkey's Nato alliance is like a toxic relationship. If the pros of having the ability of vetoing stuff within Nato overwhelms its cons then I dont know but we shouldnt expect anything good from them anymore.
They have never made their intentions for Turkey clearer before.

 

[Timur]

Disappointing tbh. Though we dont know the entire frame of the deal. Maybe they will give F-35s and cut their support for YPG. Bah, who am I kidding?

imagine you fly to ypg area and want to bomb but all are gone because they know you are coming.. as if it didnt happened with f16 and now much more capabilities like that are onboard..

 

[Saithan]

Turkey hires US lobbying firm to ensure rights in F-35 program

Turkey has inked a consultation agreement with a Washington-based law firm to lobby to protect its rights in the F-35 fighter jet program after the country...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[Ardabas34]

Turkey hires US lobbying firm to ensure rights in F-35 program

Turkey has inked a consultation agreement with a Washington-based law firm to lobby to protect its rights in the F-35 fighter jet program after the country...

www.dailysabah.com

Very good. We have some really important arguements in here.

* Our companies that produced F-35 parts lost 11 billion dollars. US on the other hand plans to return us only the money we paid to buy F-35. So who is going to make up for that 11 billion dollars?

* What is more so is that Turkey completely made its plans, its defense plan centered on the delivery of these jets. Had we know, we would maybe start our national jet project 10 years ago. US made us rely on F-35s then suddenly left us without them. Now every country either has 4.5th generation or 5th generation and we are stuck with 4th generation ones for the entire next decade!

* The reason they give for is entirely nonsense. China already hacked the information of their F-35s, Russian S-400s already interacted with their F-35's in Syria. They also legally never stated such a term before we entered the F-35 project and bought F-35s. There was no term about not acquiring S400s. They literally kicked us out illegally.

* We had pilots who trained for F-35s for years. Now their education will be entirely wasted, what is their fault?

If there was a non-rigged international court, in a suitcase about this between Turkey and US, Turkey would be granted all the F-35s it was going to be given no questions asked.
But unfortunately World doesnt work that way. If we manage to even get some compensation money, I will call it a win at this point.