Defence Q&A S-400 or F-35 for Turkey ? |Debate and Discussion

[what]

Another embarassing and probably futile step by Hulusi Akar in Hürriyet. He proposed a Cyprus-Crete S300 kind of scenario to solve the S400 issue. The government fucked up so bad, they are now offering putting the 2bln € system somewhere else, in another place to get rid of the sanctions and access to F35.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359050404454137856

 

[Oublious]

Very good. We have some really important arguements in here.

* Our companies that produced F-35 parts lost 11 billion dollars. US on the other hand plans to return us only the money we paid to buy F-35. So who is going to make up for that 11 billion dollars?

* What is more so is that Turkey completely made its plans, its defense plan centered on the delivery of these jets. Had we know, we would maybe start our national jet project 10 years ago. US made us rely on F-35s then suddenly left us without them. Now every country either has 4.5th generation or 5th generation and we are stuck with 4th generation ones for the entire next decade!

* The reason they give for is entirely nonsense. China already hacked the information of their F-35s, Russian S-400s already interacted with their F-35's in Syria. They also legally never stated such a term before we entered the F-35 project and bought F-35s. There was no term about not acquiring S400s. They literally kicked us out illegally.

* We had pilots who trained for F-35s for years. Now their education will be entirely wasted, what is their fault?

If there was a non-rigged international court, in a suitcase about this between Turkey and US, Turkey would be granted all the F-35s it was going to be given no questions asked.
But unfortunately World doesnt work that way. If we manage to even get some compensation money, I will call it a win at this point.

You still see it in money, what will you do when USA cuts you from the parts?

At least we can produce F16 parts without US.

 

[GoatsMilk]

When it came to weapons the americans have always played this give and take game. They apply nuance and manipulate Turkey as best as they can into moving in a way that benefits America. Its evil but its intelligent politics. Not like the dumb politics of AK party that swings from extremes without any foresight, planning or contingency. Everything always comes as shock and then we enter the process of reactionary politics which leads into more shocks and the downward cycle continues.

When it serves the americnas, they sell Turkey weapons and when Turkey misbehaves they restrict the weapons.

Only real solution is to build your own weapons. You want to break this terrible cycle you must succeed in producing your own hardware. You wouldn't use another mans haram to pleasure your wife, when it comes to war which is life and death you can't rely on others weapons to protect you.

This is why no Muslim majority nation should consider herself strong when she relies on outsiders for the tools of war. All that happens is we continue to deceive ourselves.

 

[Ardabas34]

Just watched from youtube we arent even going to sue US. Appearently we dont have that right as per the agreement. Wait for it: we are just going to lobby to US senates how S400s are not dangerous to F-35s.

That wasnt even the real reason we were kicked out of the project. Sentcom/Pentagon were behind these desicions. We might as well throw that money into dustbin.

I dont know what our state mind is thinking. If I can figure this out, they must have so for a billion times.

 

[Xenon54]

Just watched from youtube we arent even going to sue US. Appearently we dont have that right as per the agreement. Wait for it: we are just going to lobby to US senates how S400s are not dangerous to F-35s.

That wasnt even the real reason we were kicked out of the project. Sentcom/Pentagon were behind these desicions. We might as well throw that money into dustbin.

I dont know what our state mind is thinking. If I can figure this out, they must have so for a billion times.

Yeah, nothing will come out of this lobbying action, wasted money.

 

[Glass🚬]

Very good language here from cavus.

'No one can criticize Turkey for buying S-400s'​

Turkey bought Russian air defense only when its efforts to buy from NATO allies were rebuffed, says foreign minister​

Muhammet Tarhan and Behlul Cetinkaya |11.03.2021

​

ANKARA
Turkey should not be criticized for buying Russian-made missile defense when its efforts to buy defense and weapons from its NATO allies were rejected, said Turkey’s foreign minister on Thursday.
"When Turkey needed an air defense system, it primarily made an effort to get this system from its NATO allies. Unfortunately, our NATO allies were, citing various different excuses, unable to give an air defense system to Turkey," Mevlut Cavusoglu told reporters in Qatar, after a meeting with his Russian and Qatari counterparts on Syria.
Telling how the US-made Patriot batteries along Turkey's southern border with Syria were also withdrawn by different NATO countries, Cavusoglu said this happened at a time when Turkey needed them most.
In this period, agreement was reached over Russia's offer to sell Turkey its S-400 system, Cavusoglu said, adding that Turkey will need more air defense systems in the future.
"Thus, in such cases, we have to buy defense systems from different sources," he explained.
Saying that Turkey’s NATO allies were also told about the issue, he added that in the past the allies raised obstacles not only to buying air defense systems, but even purchasing simple weapons, adding that Turkey still faces many of these hurdles today.
In such circumstances, Turkey should not be criticized for meeting its needs from different sources, he said.
"Today, we produce 70% of our defense industry needs in our country. We also produce and export with high quality. But we still need to procure products that we can’t produce in our country one way or another," Cavusoglu said.
“Turkey, as an independent country, will use this right in the future as well,” he stressed.
In April 2017, when its protracted efforts to buy an air defense system from the US proved futile, Turkey signed a contract with Russia to acquire the state-of-art S-400s.
US officials voiced opposition to their deployment, claiming the S-400s would be incompatible with NATO systems.
Turkey, however, stressed that the S-400s would not be integrated into NATO systems, and pose no threat to the alliance or its armaments.
Turkish officials have repeatedly proposed a working group to examine the technical compatibility issue.

*Writing by Seda Sevencan and Gozde Bayar

'No one can criticize Turkey for buying S-400s'

Turkey bought Russian air defense only when its efforts to buy from NATO allies were rebuffed, says foreign minister - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Ecderha]

Above news it is nothing new. World saw what happened to Turkiye and Turkiye people able to see TRUE FACE of so called Allies.
When those destructive actions against Turkiye happened we witness the following Pseudo Allies USA, Germany, Holland, France, Sweden that showed themself on front line against Turkiye.

So called Allies planed and executed this plan together and systematically.
-Twisting and lying in local media from above pseudo countries against Turkiye
-Officials of above pseudo allies talked against Turkiye
- Applied embargoes from pseudo allies against Turkiye
-Holland, Germany,USA deployed groups left Turkiye back then all together
-Germany,USA,France supported openly PKK with siding with them , giving weapons, training PKK, leading them in battles etc.............
-Sweden made everything in it is country to put embargoes on Turkiye and Turk ppl. Made everything to support PKK and still looking for new opportunities to harm Turkiye

At beginning when all above started Turkiye was in so called STATE of DENIAL that Allies will not go against Turkiye
Then incidents start and they keep coming and coming and coming. They continue in a pattern that it is not natural it was obvious that this is planed thing
Next thing was that Turkiye went from STATE of DENAIL to STATE of WATCH and collect as much is possible DATA about Allies actions. The Psudo Allies did't able to hide their FACE
They were openly hostile against any Turkish decision.
Till that moment Turkiye toke many punches from Assad, from Terrorists, from PKK and from Allies. But Allies supposed to come in Turkiye and help, it happend that they came to join party and planed to destroy Turkiye.

Next thing happens is that Turkiye made his plan for Independence and use own planed actions to repel all above parties. Turkiye did not blind it self
In short and medium run of Time Turkiye lost. But those Time (years) passed . Now in present there are Fact of deeds happened which can't be altered and this history event are BLACK spots at Faces on Psuedo Allies

Now we are in present time which I should called "long run" where Turkiye will gain momentum and get own from all above parties whether they wanted or not wanted.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

https://www.defensenews.com/congres...-services-chairman-looking-to-cut-our-losses/

Ripping F-35 costs, House Armed Services chairman looks to ‘cut our losses’​

By: Joe Gould and Valerie Insinna   5 days ago

When Rep. Adam Smith thinks about the F-35, he thinks about “failure on a massive freaking scale." Michael Reynolds/AFP via Getty Images)​

WASHINGTON ― The House Armed Services Committee chairman railed at the expensive F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on Friday, saying he wants to “stop throwing money down that particular rathole,” ― just days after the Air Force said it too is looking at other options.

“What does the F-35 give us? And is there a way to cut our losses? Is there a way to not keep spending that much money for such a low capability because, as you know, the sustainment costs are brutal,” Rep. Adam Smith, D-Wash., said a Brookings event.

Air Force officials recently said they are conducting a study to find the best mix of fighters including Lockheed Martin’s F-35, Boeing’s F-15EX and a replacement for the service’s oldest F-16s. Smith was thinking along similar lines.

“What I’m going to try to do is figure out how we can get a mix of fighter-attack aircraft that’s the most cost effective. And I am telling you right now a big part of that is finding something that doesn’t make us have to rely on the F-35 for the next 35 years,” he said.

Though the Joint Strike Fighter was conceived as a relatively affordable fifth-generation aircraft, it’s generally acknowledged as the world’s most expensive weapons platform. Flying the F-35 currently costs $36,000 per hour, and it has a projected lifetime cost of $1.7 trillion.


As of January, the F-35 was still struggling to meet its goal mission-capable rate, which is the percentage of aircraft that can meet at least one assigned mission. Only 69 percent met the threshold, well short of the military’s longstanding 80 percent goal.



The new proposal may not lead to the massive savings Lockheed pitched with its more expansive first pitch.

By: Valerie Insinna

While the F-35 was designed to replace the F-16 — among several other aircraft variants — Air Force officials said this month they were exploring less expensive options, including buying new F-16s from Lockheed, evaluating low-cost tactical drones and pursuing a clean-sheet fighter, as described by Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. CQ Brown in February.

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[Saithan]

Turkey may sign new S-400 deal soon, Russian official says​

BY DAILY SABAH WITH AGENCIES​

ISTANBUL POLITICS
AUG 23, 2021 10:47 AM GMT+3

A Russian transport aircraft, carrying parts of the S-400 air defense systems, lands at Murted military airport outside Ankara, Turkey, Aug. 27, 2019. (Turkish Defense Ministry via AP)


Turkey and Russia are in the process of signing a new contract for the purchase of additional S-400 missiles in the near future, the Interfax news agency cited the head of Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter as saying Monday.

Ties between NATO allies Turkey and the United States were badly strained over Ankara's acquisition of the advanced S-400 Russian air defense system, prompting Washington to remove Turkey from its F-35 Lightning II jet program.

The U.S. argued that the system could be used by Russia to covertly obtain classified details on the Lockheed Martin F-35 jets and is incompatible with NATO systems. Turkey, however, insists that the S-400 would not be integrated into NATO systems and would not pose a threat to the alliance.

Previous talks between Turkey and the U.S. on the purchase of Patriots collapsed over a host of issues, from the S-400s to Ankara's dissatisfaction with Washington's terms. Turkey has said it will only agree to an offer if it includes a technology transfer and joint production terms.

Turkey may sign new S-400 deal soon, Russian official says

Turkey and Russia are in the process of signing a new contract for the purchase of additional S-400 missiles in the near future, the Interfax news agency...

www.dailysabah.com

________________________________________

We getting a second S-400 because we need it or because RTE and AKP need political turmoil to see if they can stay in power ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

We getting a second S-400 because we need it or because RTE and AKP need political turmoil to see if they can stay in power ?

Spot on! You’ve hit the nail on the head!
+1

 

[Lool]

Turkey may sign new S-400 deal soon, Russian official says​

BY DAILY SABAH WITH AGENCIES​

ISTANBUL POLITICS
AUG 23, 2021 10:47 AM GMT+3

A Russian transport aircraft, carrying parts of the S-400 air defense systems, lands at Murted military airport outside Ankara, Turkey, Aug. 27, 2019. (Turkish Defense Ministry via AP)


Turkey and Russia are in the process of signing a new contract for the purchase of additional S-400 missiles in the near future, the Interfax news agency cited the head of Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter as saying Monday.

Ties between NATO allies Turkey and the United States were badly strained over Ankara's acquisition of the advanced S-400 Russian air defense system, prompting Washington to remove Turkey from its F-35 Lightning II jet program.

The U.S. argued that the system could be used by Russia to covertly obtain classified details on the Lockheed Martin F-35 jets and is incompatible with NATO systems. Turkey, however, insists that the S-400 would not be integrated into NATO systems and would not pose a threat to the alliance.

Previous talks between Turkey and the U.S. on the purchase of Patriots collapsed over a host of issues, from the S-400s to Ankara's dissatisfaction with Washington's terms. Turkey has said it will only agree to an offer if it includes a technology transfer and joint production terms.

Turkey may sign new S-400 deal soon, Russian official says

Turkey and Russia are in the process of signing a new contract for the purchase of additional S-400 missiles in the near future, the Interfax news agency...

www.dailysabah.com

________________________________________

We getting a second S-400 because we need it or because RTE and AKP need political turmoil to see if they can stay in power ?

According to recent rumors in several defense forums, Russia may offer ToT of the missiles used in the S400 along with the second batch
If such rumors are true, then fq the F35, Turkey gained massive stuff from the S400 deal. The missiles used in the S400 are one of the best worldwide tbh which then would be way worth getting sanctioned for
It would also help Turkey build even better missiles in the future
If the rumors are true, Turkey literally gained a priceless treasure. That is ofcourse if the rumors are true

 

[Quasar]

-MBDA and now Russia offering ToT no thanks! Turkey already start riping the rewards of Air defence projects.
- S 300 - 400 -500 evoled according to the needs of Russia and the same is true for Patriot and United Satates . And now we have Siper which will evolve according to our needs.

 

[Saithan]

-MBDA and now Russia offering ToT no thanks! Turkey already start riping the rewards of Air defence projects.
- S 300 - 400 -500 evoled according to the needs of Russia and the same is true for Patriot and United Satates . And now we have Siper which will evolve according to our needs.

I was thinking the same. Our defence industry is maturing, so they're coming with cheap offers and old missiles hoping to crop our defence industry's growth all the while they cash in.

Let's see what the politicians are going to do.

 

[Huelague]

-MBDA and now Russia offering ToT no thanks! Turkey already start riping the rewards of Air defence projects.
- S 300 - 400 -500 evoled according to the needs of Russia and the same is true for Patriot and United Satates . And now we have Siper which will evolve according to our needs.

We do not have SIPER.

 

[Huelague]

I was thinking the same. Our defence industry is maturing, so they're coming with cheap offers and old missiles hoping to crop our defence industry's growth all the while they cash in.

Let's see what the politicians are going to do.

Thinking like Chinese in this matter. What can we gain from this deal. What will they gain from same deal.

 

[Huelague]

-MBDA and now Russia offering ToT no thanks! Turkey already start riping the rewards of Air defence projects.
- S 300 - 400 -500 evoled according to the needs of Russia and the same is true for Patriot and United Satates . And now we have Siper which will evolve according to our needs.

We do not know details of the deal. We do not know which technology we will get.

 

[Huelague]

The reason of our close relationship with US/EU is our weakness and dependency. Russia could free us in many term from this.

 

[Lool]

I was thinking the same. Our defence industry is maturing, so they're coming with cheap offers and old missiles hoping to crop our defence industry's growth all the while they cash in.

Let's see what the politicians are going to do.

-MBDA and now Russia offering ToT no thanks! Turkey already start riping the rewards of Air defence projects.
- S 300 - 400 -500 evoled according to the needs of Russia and the same is true for Patriot and United Satates . And now we have Siper which will evolve according to our needs.

Not really
SIPER will take time before it is fully operational
Around 3 to 4 years more and by that time maybe new technologies will appear which means Turkish defense industry needs to restart and research the new technology that appeared
Moreover, while Aselsan radars are top notch..... Turkish made rockets arent as effecient as their American, Russian, or Israeli counterparts tbh. Not to mention that Russia already finished its trials for hypersonic rockets. Turkey is way behind in terms of rockets
That is why I said if we truly get the ToT of the missiles if the S400s from Russia. That would cover all the bases needed for Turkish Air defenses to be propelled forward in short amount of time
Its worth would be more than the F35 in the long run as Turkey will gain top notch rocket technology along with saving 3 to 4 years worth of time which is a priceless treasure in the competitive defense industry. Just think about the billions Turkey will save. In addition to that, having Technology from Russia may open new know hows to the turks as their mentality may be way too European in defense
Furthermore, Turkey already has the know how for developing stealth aircrafts since they used to make f35 parts. Thus, F35 isnt that crucial to the turkish defense industry rn

Again all of this is true of there is really ToT from Russia; though I doubt it because you know..... it is the Russians we are talking about

 

[TheInsider]

Sİper will be ready in 2023. So 2 years. The fire control center of Siper is ready. AIR(low altitude radar), EIRS( S-band early warning radar), and multifunctional fire control radar(x band) will be delivered in 2022. Missile tests will start in 2022 and will continue in 2023. At this point, I don't think signing a contract for the second batch of S-400 or cooperating with MBDA is logical unless they offer technologies related to a THAAD class missile.

 

[AWP]

hello everyone , I am new here but if its ok with you guys ( Turks ) to have a foreign opinion then I would be grateful .

I truly believe that the s400 acquisition and trashing the f-35 program is one of the best things happened in the recent decade . I wont talk about the military technical aspect since non here is involving directly in both programs including me.

one thing we wont know for sure , is the s400 decision was from the government or the TSK ? we wont cuz the west now would love to use any kind of dispute between the turkish government and TSK in order to make both those parties look weak in the eyes of turkish people and the world . but I believe its a mutual understanding between both of them ( RTE & Akar ) since politicians can't understand fully why s400 is a good system and the army won't understand the political consequences of such decision .

if it wasn't for the s400 acquisition then the turkish 5th gen fighter wont be pushed this far and might even be canceled , the TF-X results will last until the end of are time , in 2050 maybe turkey will have 6th gen fighter based on the knowledge of the 5th gen and on 2100 the 7th gen and etc .... while looking at the arabs since 60s until now can't even manufacture a single blade .

also I guess that tec transfer of s400 would help the turkish engineers to understand more on those kind of missiles and maybe or inshallah on maybe 2030s Siper block II would have 350+ Km based on the knowledge acquired from the s400 or we take the to new level s400 block II ,, we may never know .

I really hope that RTE or whoever comes next keep playing this middle finger card to the west because we may lose everything just to satisfy some fat western pedo politicians that made money out of turkish people .

one last thing I red before even though sounds possible but yet won't make sense , I red that RTE bought the s400 so in any future coup he would be able to down the f-16 fighter since the current SAM that turkey have wont fire at any Nato Ally system so he count on a russian one .

 

[Saithan]

hello everyone , I am new here but if its ok with you guys ( Turks ) to have a foreign opinion then I would be grateful .

I truly believe that the s400 acquisition and trashing the f-35 program is one of the best things happened in the recent decade . I wont talk about the military technical aspect since non here is involving directly in both programs including me.

one thing we wont know for sure , is the s400 decision was from the government or the TSK ? we wont cuz the west now would love to use any kind of dispute between the turkish government and TSK in order to make both those parties look weak in the eyes of turkish people and the world . but I believe its a mutual understanding between both of them ( RTE & Akar ) since politicians can't understand fully why s400 is a good system and the army won't understand the political consequences of such decision .

if it wasn't for the s400 acquisition then the turkish 5th gen fighter wont be pushed this far and might even be canceled , the TF-X results will last until the end of are time , in 2050 maybe turkey will have 6th gen fighter based on the knowledge of the 5th gen and on 2100 the 7th gen and etc .... while looking at the arabs since 60s until now can't even manufacture a single blade .

also I guess that tec transfer of s400 would help the turkish engineers to understand more on those kind of missiles and maybe or inshallah on maybe 2030s Siper block II would have 350+ Km based on the knowledge acquired from the s400 or we take the to new level s400 block II ,, we may never know .

I really hope that RTE or whoever comes next keep playing this middle finger card to the west because we may lose everything just to satisfy some fat western pedo politicians that made money out of turkish people .

one last thing I red before even though sounds possible but yet won't make sense , I red that RTE bought the s400 so in any future coup he would be able to down the f-16 fighter since the current SAM that turkey have wont fire at any Nato Ally system so he count on a russian one .

Thanks for your pov. I agree that whoever comes next must keep playing the buddy game. But have to rebuild the economy without sacrificing our gains. Once our economy starts improving. I bet you we’ll see increased activity to try to weaken us in our neighborhood.

Turkey should be as economic strong as Germany, nuclear power like UK and Turk as Atatürk wanted.

Playing the game but improving our hand and our cards is never wrong.

But alas we have politics and power struggle. And days of reckoning is coming.

As long as TSK has the leadership expected of Atatürks armed forces then I’m happy.

Hisar O+ and current AD should be produced in enough quantities to be tested out in different combat scenarios.