India Army Small Arms

[Jammer]

Spadex created a thread:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1808136724247466425

They want 600k AK 203s and upto 400k carbine that is going to be an AR15 and along with having 73K sig716 with an option for 70k more. This could have been done much more fluently.

 

[Gessler]

Kuntal Biswas has gotten into small arms CGIs as well: his first project - the ASMI 9mm

 

[UkroTurk]

Kuntal Biswas has gotten into small arms CGIs as well: his first project - the ASMI 9mm

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I hate Glock magazines

 

[Nilgiri]

They want 600k AK 203s and upto 400k carbine that is going to be an AR15 and along with having 73K sig716 with an option for 70k more. This could have been done much more fluently.

Best arc was to just go for the FN FNC (given massive FAL deployment prior to it in IA), and make a local variant for it with all the production/export/upgrade rights from that point on etc....we would have had a great standardized+constantly upgraded platform by now.

India could have easily done this at the time....and saved a ton of time, money and sweat with trying to reinvent the wheel with INSAS and now these backfill importing this late stage.

i.e get the job done (good rifles to our troops) and then move onto the next thing for deploying the resources saved.

South block though always loves doing "heres the X amount of time we have to launder.....now find the agenda and budget for it".

It is that adage, going around digging holes to find water (because others talk you into another place being better than previous one), when digging that same hole in just one place no matter what.... would have found water long ago even on most barren dry rock.

 

[Kartal1]

They want 600k AK 203s and upto 400k carbine that is going to be an AR15 and along with having 73K sig716 with an option for 70k more. This could have been done much more fluently.

AK 7.62x39 platform, AR platform (I suppose 5.56x45), the SIG716 in 7.62x51 according to your info. What is the reason for the Indian Armed Forces to opt for such a big variety of standard issued rifles in terms of both platform types and calibers? Wouldn't this create a logistics problem?

 

[Jammer]

AK 7.62x39 platform, AR platform (I suppose 5.56x45), the SIG716 in 7.62x51 according to your info. What is the reason for the Indian Armed Forces to opt for such a big variety of standard issued rifles in terms of both platform types and calibers? Wouldn't this create a logistics problem?

This has been the way for a long term.All three ammo along with 7.62x54 for drugunovs have been with troops for two decades.They had the FAL as standard during most of the 70s till the fighting in sri lanka showed its down sides and soviet AK rifles started getting issued in small numbers. Then the whole insas fiasco started with the defects of the rifle along with troops who were firing a battle rifle suddenly finding themselves firing an 5.56 ammo from 18 inch barrel also made them question the lethality of the round and with boomer generals coming into podcasts and making 5.56 into somewhat of a BB cartridge to the eyes of the public. Army itself then wanted to return to 7.62x51 platform and got sig716s and to add a twist went to russia to get some downgraded AK203 which didnt even went through trials in india just because it was an Ak .

 

[Kartal1]

This has been the way for a long term.All three ammo along with 7.62x54 for drugunovs have been with troops for two decades.They had the FAL as standard during most of the 70s till the fighting in sri lanka showed its down sides and soviet AK rifles started getting issued in small numbers. Then the whole insas fiasco started with the defects of the rifle along with troops who were firing a battle rifle suddenly finding themselves firing an 5.56 ammo from 18 inch barrel also made them question the lethality of the round and with boomer generals coming into podcasts and making 5.56 into somewhat of a BB cartridge to the eyes of the public. Army itself then wanted to return to 7.62x51 platform and got sig716s and to add a twist went to russia to get some downgraded AK203 which didnt even went through trials in india just because it was an Ak .

Sounds like a mess

It's just shocking to see India struggling on this issue while India has cooperation agreements with many of the best in the business and also a serious base for domestic production of whatever India may choose.

By the way in Turkiye we had enough from the boomers thinking that 5.56x45 is a BB cartridge, but after we started replacing standart G3 or MPT-76 chambered in 7.62x51 with MPT-55 and SAR-56 chambered in 5.56x45 in operational units I think no enemy have complained that it hits too weak

Super hero, boomer General who killed 50 people with a bayonet is not right? It can't be!

I have a prejudice towards boomer generals for some time now. I don't know how it is in India, but the more I am listening to Turkish boomers, the more I want to puke... With respect for their service, but I still have the urge to puke and unfortunately I can't help it.

 

[Gessler]

AK 7.62x39 platform, AR platform (I suppose 5.56x45), the SIG716 in 7.62x51 according to your info. What is the reason for the Indian Armed Forces to opt for such a big variety of standard issued rifles in terms of both platform types and calibers? Wouldn't this create a logistics problem?

While it's certainly a mess in the grand view of things, at the unit level (section or platoon level) the logistics are going to be pretty standard with at most 2 ammo types in use, which is how most Armies in the world operate.

It would be exceedingly rare, if impossible, for the same unit to operate all three rifle types. It will be frontline strike corps & maneuver units with SIG716s, second line infantry (aka holding corps) with AK203s and non-infantry users like artillery/vehicle crews with the 5.56 carbines.

Frontline units will be able to coalesce their entire ammo supply around a single calibre: the 7.62x51 which will be used by both the riflemen (716s) and MG gunners (Negev NG7). Holding corps infantry will be having 2 ammo types: 7.62x39 (AK203) and 7.62x51 (yet undecided LMG). There's no section-level DMR role to speak of as of yet, but if that need arises, they're still likely to stick to the 7.62x51 round, just a different platform (modified 716 maybe).

Non-infantry personnel won't be using MGs or marksman rifles so their entire supply will consist of either 1 or 2 types of ammo as well (5.56x45 and/or 7.62x39).

 

[Jammer]

Sounds like a mess

It's just shocking to see India struggling on this issue while India has cooperation agreements with many of the best in the business and also a serious base for domestic production of whatever India may choose.

By the way in Turkiye we had enough from the boomers thinking that 5.56x45 is a BB cartridge, but after we started replacing standart G3 or MPT-76 chambered in 7.62x51 with MPT-55 and SAR-56 chambered in 5.56x45 in operational units I think no enemy have complained that it hits too weak

Super hero, boomer General who killed 50 people with a bayonet is not right? It can't be!

I have a prejudice towards boomer generals for some time now. I don't know how it is in India, but the more I am listening to Turkish boomers, the more I want to puke... With respect for their service, but I still have the urge to puke and unfortunately I can't help it.

Well there was an veteran telling in a podcast with millions of views that PTSD is an "american phenomenon "and indian soldiers will never get it because they are not fighting in foreign lands.

 

[UkroTurk]

Best arc was to just go for the FN FNC

Unfortunately too late. FNC is My favorite carbine however i don't know the reason. Just it looks cool to me .
FNC was the real modernized AK.

Now you and we , all armies should go for CZ BREN, FN SCAR style assault rifles.

 

[Jammer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821986433596584368

 

[Nilgiri]

Really interesting deep dive into INSAS, cant wait for the upcoming part 3 (INSAS potential upgrade program):

Indian Army Plans to Upgrade the INSAS Rifle. Part 1 - History

The history of the Indian INSAS rifle is quite unique and has always been marked by controversy.And even if you never heard of it before, you can figure out its reputation just by reading headlines of TFB articles published in the last 10 years: India Replaces All INSAS Rifles In

www.thefirearmblog.com

Indian Army Plans to Upgrade INSAS Rifle. Part 2 - My Experience

In the first part of this article, I talked about the history of the INSAS rifle and the problems that were described in the Indian press.After reading countless articles about INSAS, I had a chance to travel to India and asked every Indian serviceman I met about those problems.Here is what I...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821986433596584368

I believe this is for Armenia. They also ordered SSSD's sniper rifles as well even though neither party officially confirmed it except stating "friendly foreign nation"

 

[Nilgiri]

Part 3 dropped:

Indian Army Plans to Upgrade INSAS Rifle. Part 3 - The Future

In Part 1 of this article, I talked about the history of the INSAS platform, Part 2 was dedicated to my personal experiences with these rifles as well as the opinions of soldiers I collected over the years.In the final article of the series, I will talk about upgrades of INSAS and the possible...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Nilgiri]

@Zapper @Gessler et al, well worth the watch as to the basic nature of problems that plague the defence sector at large and south block keeping things that way and being near impervious to crucial reform regarding things like:

supply chains, holistic approach to RnD, HR management, requirements process, funding and so much more...