TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

They said, TFX will fly with F-16 engine. Which is not an stealth engine.

Yes. Accordng to what Mr Kotil says, first 12 prototypes are going to be flying with F110 engines ( Not quite F16 engines, but Same engines set up for twin engine mode). These you may call non-stealth.
The last 2 prototype planes will have indigenous turbofans with more power and hopefully stealthy characteristics.
Then any serially manufactured TFX after these planes should have stealthy engines.

 

[Osman]

The number of prototypes seemed to much for me. I mean how many prototypes have been used for f 35? As far as I remember it was 7 8 something like this. Is there a specific reason for having 14 prototypes? Ok 2 of them with national engine. But remaining 12? Will we have 2 3 version of mmu? Mmu with two seats etc?

 

[Agha Sher]

The number of prototypes seemed to much for me. I mean how many prototypes have been used for f 35? As far as I remember it was 7 8 something like this. Is there a specific reason for having 14 prototypes? Ok 2 of them with national engine. But remaining 12? Will we have 2 3 version of mmu? Mmu with two seats etc?

Agree, seems wasteful.

 

[Nilgiri]

The number of prototypes seemed to much for me. I mean how many prototypes have been used for f 35? As far as I remember it was 7 8 something like this. Is there a specific reason for having 14 prototypes? Ok 2 of them with national engine. But remaining 12? Will we have 2 3 version of mmu? Mmu with two seats etc?

It may be to fully test out and validate the currently evolving networking technologies. You might need a certain number bulk for it so plan ahead for that now.

Some of these can be limited series production too maybe....but called prototype for now.

 

[Hasanrize]

The number of prototypes seemed to much for me. I mean how many prototypes have been used for f 35? As far as I remember it was 7 8 something like this. Is there a specific reason for having 14 prototypes? Ok 2 of them with national engine. But remaining 12? Will we have 2 3 version of mmu? Mmu with two seats etc?

Before F-35, there was X-35 as a technology demonstrator. Then, F-35 developed from that X-35 and had prototypes of its own. We can't compare these as F-35 simply had two different prototype stages.

12+2 might look too much, but we need more than ordinary numbers to reach high flight hours quickly. For example, Su-57 has ten prototypes.

 

[Saithan]

It’s an engine that TEI is familiar with, so It’s likely related to the design of TFX.

also would/could those extra prototype be related to a naval version ?

 

[Zafer]

14 prototypes will shorten development time as they can do tests without waiting for results from other tests, like parallel processing in computing. Once development is completed the 12 prototypes can be converted to an initial fleet of TF fighters with older engines while development continues with prototypes made with domestic engines.

 

[Bogeyman]

Tufan Erginbilgic has become the CEO of Rolce Royce. They brought a Turk to head the RR

Rolls-Royce appoints Tufan Erginbilgic as Chief Executive Officer

Rolls-Royce appoints Tufan Erginbilgic as Chief Executive Officer

www.rolls-royce.com

 

[Lool]

Tufan Erginbilgic has become the CEO of Rolce Royce. They brought a Turk to head the RR

Rolls-Royce appoints Tufan Erginbilgic as Chief Executive Officer

Rolls-Royce appoints Tufan Erginbilgic as Chief Executive Officer

www.rolls-royce.com

If there was such an individual, Turkey should have took him to work in companies like TAI etc; Turkey is in dire need of top quality human resources and he seems to fit the criteria

 

[Motiv888]

If there was such an individual, Turkey should have took him to work in companies like TAI etc; Turkey is in dire need of top quality human resources and he seems to fit the criteria

He's on the board as a non exec at Türkiye Petrol Rafinerileri A.Ş (Tupras)

A quick question on BAE's involvement in the TFX. I believe this is coming to an end, when will this happen, and how will that affect the continuing development of the plane?

 

[Windchime]

Before F-35, there was X-35 as a technology demonstrator. Then, F-35 developed from that X-35 and had prototypes of its own. We can't compare these as F-35 simply had two different prototype stages.

12+2 might look too much, but we need more than ordinary numbers to reach high flight hours quickly. For example, Su-57 has ten prototypes.

Really depends. For example, the Eurofighter consortium built 14 prototypes for the Typhoon development. 7 development prototypes and other 7 prototypes based on production model for integration of individual subsystems. Though this can be argued to be caused by differing operating requirements and workshare agreement between the partner nations.

I suspect that some of those MMU prototypes are akin to IPA prototypes of the Typhoon.

For instance, the French only built 4 development prototypes, 2 each for the AdlA and MN variants.

Also, the US has only built 8 EMD prototypes after the YF-23 was chosen, 2 block 1s and 6 block 10s.

Overall, I think building 12 + 2 prototypes are a bit too much in western standards. There are 2 reasons why in most of the cases there are less than 10 prototypes, most of the times close to 5 plusminus 2 aircrafts built in development. One is obviously for cost saving reason. Other is due to the limits on the manhours. All the data those prototypes pump out should be analyzed by someone, you know. So the effectiveness of having more prototypes decrease. Though that doesn't mean more prototypes doesn't provide advantages. Having 12 + 2 prototypes for MMU will surely help. Like I've said, it's more of a matter of cost and efficiency.

 

[Zafer]

Overall, I think building 12 + 2 prototypes are a bit too much in western standards. There are 2 reasons why in most of the cases there are less than 10 prototypes, most of the times close to 5 plusminus 2 aircrafts built in development. One is obviously for cost saving reason. Other is due to the limits on the manhours. All the datas those prototypes pump out should be analyzed by someone, you know. So the effectiveness of having more prototypes decrease. Though that doesn't mean more prototypes doesn't provide advantages. Having 12 + 2 prototypes for MMU will surely help. Like I've said, it's more of a matter of cost and efficiency.

TAI have developed an AI based test process which will bring test time to 30% of usual, down70%.
Testing 14 planes can be apiece of cake.

 

[CAN_TR]

Which is not an stealth engine.

Slightly overrated, the thermal signature is somehwhat lower but i don't think that modern IR seekers/IRST have much of a problem to detect it. I already shared images of 4/5th Gen. fighters and their thermal signature there was a difference yes, but nothing where i personally would say that's a priority/must have.

You can reduce thermal signature by increasing bypass air, special exhaust baffles or even heat exchanger.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Slightly overrated, the thermal signature is somehwhat lower but i don't think that modern IR seekers have much of a problem to detect it.

You can reduce thermal signature by increasing bypass air, special exhaust baffles or even heat exchanger.

A lot of emphasis is being given to the so called ”stealthy engine”.
Do we really know what a stealthy engine entails?

Yes! The IR signature has to be low.
Also the sound levels have to be low.
For a fighter jet; The engine has to have enough thrust to achieve high supercruise
Engine size and placement has to be so that it does not retract from plane’s overall stealth performance.
The engine has to develop a lot of energy to power the directed energy weapons plus the powerful radar and avionics.

Best stealthy military plane in operation is probably the B2 bomber. It has subsonic engines which are derivatives of F110 with high bypass ratios akin to commercial airline engines. They are comparatively quiet. They are F118-GE-100 non-afterburner engines with 77KN (17300lbf) thrust. And there are four of these very well hidden in to the body of the wings of the plane. B2 is stealthy but can not supercruise. It is a subsonic plane.

So to produce a stealthy engine for a near 2mach class fighter jet is not a simple task. You have to have the capabilities of a non-afterburner high bypass jet engine together with the capabilities of a high thrust delivering afterburner engine.
So it will be a compromise. How much of a compromise is the question.

 

[Zafer]

Once we have the domestic TFX engines we should consider making a variety of planes around them.

1. Two engine fighter jet
2. One engine fighter jet
3. Four engine bomber
4. Four engine tanker
5. Two engine supersonic passenger plane
6. Four engine supersonic passenger plane
7. Four engine cargo plane
8. One engine supersonic cruise missile (ground/surface)
9. Aero-derivative marine engine

 

[Rodeo]

Once we have the domestic MMU engines we should consider making a variety of planes around them.

1. Two engine fighter jet
2. One engine fighter jet
3. Four engine bomber
4. Four engine tanker
5. Two engine supersonic passenger plane
6. Four engine supersonic passenger plane
7. Four engine cargo plane
8. One engine supersonic cruise missile ground/surface
9. Aero-derivative marine engine

Supersonic passenger plane? That's pushing the envelope too much.

 

[Hasanrize]

Once we have the domestic TFX engines we should consider making a variety of planes around them.

1. Two engine fighter jet
2. One engine fighter jet
3. Four engine bomber
4. Four engine tanker
5. Two engine supersonic passenger plane
6. Four engine supersonic passenger plane
7. Four engine cargo plane
8. One engine supersonic cruise missile (ground/surface)
9. Aero-derivative marine engine

Dude, slow down. Making MMU should be a priority for now. All those you wrote had economic problems.

1. We will have MMU for that.
2. Why should the airforce have separate aircraft with single engines? What is specific for that, so do we need one?
3. Again, why? What makes you think that we need a big bomber? Even The USA doesn't use its bomber fleet apart from using them in some operations that are made just to be made.
4. Should we design an aircraft + a new derivate engine for the tanker? How many TuAF will buy? 10? Does it worth spending this money? Especially when we can simply turn any Boeing or Airbus plane belonging to bankrupt companies which are currently sitting in Istanbul Airport.
5-6. This was tried and failed. Named Concorde. It failed because of economic reasons, just as A380 failed. Let's say we made these; who will buy God damn supersonic passenger plane? Especially economics of Aviation is worse than when Concorde was up.
7. Same with 4. Why not simply go to Antonov and start a joint project of producing An-124 or even An-225 with better avionics and engines? Shouldn't it be cheaper and easier?
8. Seriously? How many cruise missiles did you see before using engines designed for fighter jets? Any missile with F110? These engines cost almost twice the most expensive cruise missiles.
9. This would make sense.

We must remember that we are Turkey with a 15-20B $ defense budget. Not the USA with almost 1T. Just because we have an engine does not mean we can start building an entire army around that engine.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

TUSAŞ General Manager and CEO Temel KOTİL stated that the General Electric F-16 engine -F110-GE-129E- will be used in the first 7 aircraft within the scope of the MMU/TF-X Program, and then the domestic engine will be used.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551948932414062599

 

[Saithan]

TUSAŞ General Manager and CEO Temel KOTİL stated that the General Electric F-16 engine -F110-GE-129E- will be used in the first 7 aircraft within the scope of the MMU/TF-X Program, and then the domestic engine will be used.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551948932414062599

How does that work. Does the domestic engine have same dimension as F110 ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

TUSAŞ General Manager and CEO Temel KOTİL stated that the General Electric F-16 engine -F110-GE-129E- will be used in the first 7 aircraft within the scope of the MMU/TF-X Program, and then the domestic engine will be used.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551948932414062599

Actually there is a contradiction in these statements. Yes the engine F110-GE-129 is the engine that is used in F16 planes. But the “E” designation is the version that is specifically produced for twin engine use for the F15E and F15EX Eagle-II planes. F16 planes do not have this engine designation.

F110 engine | GE Aerospace

F110Engine

www.geaviation.com