TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Knowledgeseeker

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Guys we need to remember one thing. The geopolitical circumstance that we are in right now will change like it always changes. With these changes, turkey will enter the league of the big players around 2028-2035 with breakthroughs in air, land, and sea. Everything from TF-X, MIUS/TISU, to land platforms such as Altay, and naval warships such as the TF-2000. With all this success a lot of countries will be more inclined to be cooperative with turkey and go to turkey for its arms deal. This can be based on price, TOT, and solid alliances that will form in the future. When it comes specifically to the TF-X then it's not like Morocco, or Malaysia, for example, will not go for the TF-X just because they don't get TOT. In the first place, the western world is not even open to selling us 5-generation fighter jets, so it's not like we are in a position to ask for TOT. To be very frank with you guys most African/Asian/Muslim states don't even have the necessary infrastructure to deal with such a big project. We have a few countries such as Morocco, and Malaysia that have well-established aerospace industries.
 

Ecderha

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Interesting video about the Orpheus engine project of RR regarding application to Tempest and TFX.
There is a part where it is mentioned about what I Demir said with respect to MMU engine, that the Turkish side is ready to take the business further.
As RR has proven that they can produce engines in short times, if we choose to go ahead with them we may even have engines for the first flight .

This engine’s two prototypes were manufactured from scratch in less than 18 months. If this engine is meant to be for a 6th generation plane and they are offering this to us for our MMU, then I don’t know what we are waiting for.
IP rights!
If IP rights are own by RR then it will have forbidding clauses... for Turkiye etc.

As I already posted 3-4 months ago that President of Defence Industry Agency Ismail Demir clearly SAID that all Turkish company teams working on MMU engine were united as ONE team ONE project for MMU engine.

Also he SAID that RR team is not part of above team, BUT if RR want to join to project Turkiye is Open for talk.
 

Ecderha

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MMU is a prestige project and if it succeeds the whole world will see Turks and Turkey in a different light. If any other country is involved you can be sure they will try to talk down the success of Turkey again.

They already do with Turkish drones, mainstream media picks up on imported parts in Turkish products and say "the Turks can't do it their products rely on other countries to provide the critical parts". TF-X was also treated like the Iranian 6th gen fighter by westerners. When the plane is in mass production some will cope with "it's just a f22 clone" some will close their eyes but i feel like Turkey making a fighter on this level on it's own will show the whole world that the age of western monopoly is done and gone

"MMU is a prestige project and if it succeeds the whole world will see Turks and Turkey in a different light."
I can agree as following:
Today world see Turks with eyes of Hate especially WEST.
If MMU succeeds the whole world will see Turks with eyes of Jealousy.

Than as always following will happened. Specific people will come to buy MMU product
- First will come West. They will want the product because it will be threat for them. Therefor buying any small numbers of MMU will be enough to provide useful model for testing. Any finding which will provide weak points will be used when time comes.
- Second will come countries like Arabs -> UAE, Saudi etc. for them it is like new candy They Want it
-Others will come for for real numbers and long contract
 
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Nilgiri

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Projects of this magintude have ballooning costs when it comes to serial production; cooperation and sharing of production load and costs will be necessary, and this cooperation will be with close and friendly nations like Azerbaijan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh hopefully. People here who talk as if they are experts on the industrial base and human capital potential of these countries without being able to name a city in them, sound very much like the Greek chauvinists who have no idea about capabilities of Turkey and companies like TUSAŞ, TEİ, KALE or ASELSAN and their history of cooperation with the likes of General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, Rolls Royce, etc. and the wealth of experience from technicians brought up in numerous quality technical schools in the country which have an organic bond with our industry and the fact that these companies have been making industry grade fine parts and assembling the likes of f16s and f110 engines for decades. Just like they have no clue about Turkey's history and industrial base and capacities, you have no clue about Malaysia, Indonesia and Pakistan; educate yourself then you will not have childish claims that these 200 million strong nations have nothing to contribute in terms of production capacities or human capital. Stupid.:mad:

Maybe we should look at some cold hard numbers for each country you mention rather than simply assert "industrial base" and "human capital potential" in any more personally imputed direction.

Things like international patent grants per year and intellectual property receipt (and scale this for per capita)...and compare that to Turkiye to get a rough idea of where things stand in realised RnD qualitative tier. Defence sector capacity would correlate to this in the end as in the end it illustrates if there is actual reverence and development of intellectualism and progress over anti-intellectual and anti-progress that many developing countries suffer from (some even idolize this over-conservative stasis).

One of the three final countries you mention is especially behind on IP results per capita.

In any case as others have pointed out, if others (more geopolitically amenable) human capital and industrial base were competitive (and they could bring something to the table that made sense in either comparative or absolute advantage way vis a vis Turkiye)..... surely they would have recognised that and joined TR (or gotten TR to join a program of theirs) at a far earlier juncture to gain the best optimal leverage in a 5th generation a/c project?

All said and done, and with the results on hand of others actual interest and raw capability analysis, I figure Turkish project management and decision makers know quite well there is a long road ahead but that there are vital subsystems that simply no other country in Muslim world can provide better, faster and more matured way than Turkiye itself can do.

Customers/clients down road are different matter to risk/reward of actual technology/workshare that goes into something like a TFX.

You have to understand Turkiye unique industrial and research partnership with the West for example, the duration of its depth and scale and the role this plays combined with Turkish higher focus over protracted time in crucial areas of RnD and application that produce certain cold hard numbers and matured results thus far.

It is this that provides sound basis for actual potential to take forward compared to words and feelings and only Turkiye itself can gauge what is risk/reward here in possible delegation/cooperation with any others. What might sound good in say the media but what will it expose (behind the scenes) too early riskily for too little reward etc. These things all have to be well known in principle and application in the final equation.

The coming few years will illustrate more on this anyway in TFX specifically, as there are a whole host of things TR needs to develop for TFX in a core intrinsic way.
 

Rodeo

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Thats so good to hear.

I guess I take my statements back then. Still funny how the stereotypes get broken overtime.
TFX will be the "thing" that will utterly shatter that kebab man image.

That being said, the ice cream men need to go. I hate them. They kill my appetite for the sweet. If I had to buy one, I'd put a straight face and warn him not to do the tricks without moving a single muscle on my face.
 
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MADDOG

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It's actuatin time


Screen Shot 2022-11-28 at 12.53.36.png

Screen Shot 2022-11-28 at 12.53.29.png
 

MADDOG

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Guys I f*cking tried alright :ROFLMAO:

Screen Shot 2022-11-28 at 16.07.26.png


EDIT: Sh*t forgot the flaperons

EDIT 2: Screw it
 
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TsumugiShirogane

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People here seem to have forgotten the fact that RR, and by extension the UK is still the most important player in the TF-X project. Do I need to remind you that if RR decides to up and leave for any reason, this project is delayed for >25 years? That China with all it's money and industrial might was using old Russian engines until yesterday when they came up with WS-15? Creating a stable, flying turbofan engine with upwards of 30,000lbfs of thrust from scratch takes decades, billions of dollars and an enormous engineering research and know-how, all of this with pretty much no return until the plane is flying. And by that time XA100 is up in the sky and you're already obsolete by multiple generations, IF you haven't already bankrupt yourself and the project is just stalled until forever like Russia. Let's not kid ourselves with childish nationalism and face reality. All this talk of technology transfer or allowing into partnership as if we have any choice, is nothing but nonsense. We can do nothing but pray that RR and Kale partnership continues, and they come up with well functioning, powerful, near-5th gen engines.
 

MADDOG

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Why does BAYKAR split the control surfaces of their drones to many pieces? Is that because their actuators are too weak? AKINCI has three actuators just for the rudder. And look at KIZILELMA's wings. A single wing has 5 of them.

1603334183_bayraktarakinci3.jpg

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fc36yskxwawal7e-jpg.47825
Possibly.
 

Rodeo

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People here seem to have forgotten the fact that RR, and by extension the UK is still the most important player in the TF-X project. Do I need to remind you that if RR decides to up and leave for any reason, this project is delayed for >25 years? That China with all it's money and industrial might was using old Russian engines until yesterday when they came up with WS-15? Creating a stable, flying turbofan engine with upwards of 30,000lbfs of thrust from scratch takes decades, billions of dollars and an enormous engineering research and know-how, all of this with pretty much no return until the plane is flying. And by that time XA100 is up in the sky and you're already obsolete by multiple generations, IF you haven't already bankrupt yourself and the project is just stalled until forever like Russia. Let's not kid ourselves with childish nationalism and face reality. All this talk of technology transfer or allowing into partnership as if we have any choice, is nothing but nonsense. We can do nothing but pray that RR and Kale partnership continues, and they come up with well functioning, powerful, near-5th gen engines.
A shortsighted argument. I wish the ones who claim "it'll take decades because it took such and such country that long" would provide a deeper insight to what specifically took the time to develop so that we could examine TEI's capabilities in that regard and conclude if we are, indeed, up for the task or not. So I challenge you to state these technologies that we don't have or not within our reach. Only then we could have any fruitful conversations.
 
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Pilatino

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People here seem to have forgotten the fact that RR, and by extension the UK is still the most important player in the TF-X project. Do I need to remind you that if RR decides to up and leave for any reason, this project is delayed for >25 years? That China with all it's money and industrial might was using old Russian engines until yesterday when they came up with WS-15? Creating a stable, flying turbofan engine with upwards of 30,000lbfs of thrust from scratch takes decades, billions of dollars and an enormous engineering research and know-how, all of this with pretty much no return until the plane is flying. And by that time XA100 is up in the sky and you're already obsolete by multiple generations, IF you haven't already bankrupt yourself and the project is just stalled until forever like Russia. Let's not kid ourselves with childish nationalism and face reality. All this talk of technology transfer or allowing into partnership as if we have any choice, is nothing but nonsense. We can do nothing but pray that RR and Kale partnership continues, and they come up with well functioning, powerful, near-5th gen engines.
You're underestimating our reverse engineering capabilities :D We can play with F110 and produce the engines for TFX and If we're lucky enough after that point we can find a new experienced partner for our next project (Japan) for example.

Because we'll be knowing how but it will take time to know WHY. We can develop that part with a country like Japan.
 

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