TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Cabatli_TR]

 

[TheInsider]

Their requirements can be met by a single engine light/medium weight 5th gen design. Why then even bother with a twin engine heavy weight design?

You are not thinking correctly. The minimum requirements of such an aircraft will be even lower. If such a project ever happens you might see a 500lbs internal capacity requirement.

For example, the minimum requirement of the Gökdoğan missile was 65km range. It easily passes that range today and soon it will reach over 100km without much effort. You might argue why need a missile as big as Gokdoğan to achieve a 65km range. It doesn't work like that.
Operational requirements are the minimum requirements a defense product has to achieve to successfully complete its designated mission. Anything lower than that and the armed forces won't accept it as a viable product and won't procure it.

So, in the end, we are "guaranteed" to have a product that achieves the minimum requirements. That doesn't tell us about anything about the final capability of the product.

 

[Kartal1]

I also see SPEAR as a requirement. Does that mean they are planning to buy SPEAR missiles from the Brits for TFX? Or they mention it as an missile equivalent (possible Kuzgun)?

 

[Philips]

We shouldn't take the TurAF requirements seriously. They are advertising the TF-X with foreign weapons while their chief said last week: "we won't be comfortable unless we drop national munitions from national aircraft using national satellites".

Who here thinks the TF-X is going to use an external reconnaissance pod? As if Aselsan is incapable of developing an F-35 EOTS equivalent from 2008 or better in 10 years time?

Who here genuinely thinks the TF-X is going to use ASRAAM, MICA, GBU, SPEAR, SDB or even the Meteor in Turkish service?

The TurAF should focus on national weapons and let TAI and SSB do the foreign promotion.

 

[Philips]

You are not thinking correctly. The minimum requirements of such an aircraft will be even lower. If such a project ever happens you might see a 500lbs internal capacity requirement.

For example, the minimum requirement of the Gökdoğan missile was 65km range. It easily passes that range today and soon it will reach over 100km without much effort. You might argue why need a missile as big as Gokdoğan to achieve a 65km range. It doesn't work like that.
Operational requirements are the minimum requirements a defense product has to achieve to successfully complete its designated mission. Anything lower than that and the armed forces won't accept it as a viable product and won't procure it.

So, in the end, we are "guaranteed" to have a product that achieves the minimum requirements. That doesn't tell us about anything about the final capability of the product.

The requirements are too poor in the first place. 65km is even lower than the 30 year old AIM-120A. That the Turkish military industry is capable of developing better performing products, doesn't mean the requirements aren't subpar in the first place.

The TurAF minds might be thinking about national weapons, but their hearts sure don't.

 

[TheInsider]

So by your logic range requirement of the Gokdogan missile should have been 100km and when a missile with an 80km range delivered the air force should have rejected it because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements. This is how you destroy a defense industry.

 

[Philips]

So by your logic range requirement of the Gokdogan missile should have been 100km and when a missile with an 80km range delivered the air force should have rejected it because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements. This is how you destroy a defense industry.

No, the requirements should've been minimum AIM-120B range which the Gokdogan is supposed to be replacing. Tubitak-Sage could have gone the easy way by designing a MICA sized missile to reach 65km and be done with it and it would've left the TurAF scratching their heads. It is thanks to the benevolence and ambition of Tubitak-Sage that they designed an AIM-120 sized missile with room for growth approaching the AIM-120C5/7 range.

The TurAF seems to be betting on the benevolence of the industry instead of putting realistic requirements in the first place.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Who here genuinely thinks the TF-X is going to use ASRAAM, MICA, GBU, SPEAR, SDB or even the Meteor in Turkish service?

I guess these are quoted for export chances

 

[Philips]

Perhaps it is because it is a mult-irole fighter that has to meet many other requirements like speed, range, non-stealth carrying capacity and such.

Good point. It could've have achieved it with a twin engine medium weight design like the KF-X/AMCA.

 

[TheInsider]

This is wrong there is no guarantee(and most likely will fail) that you will achieve the same range as 120C5/C7 on your first try. Putting the bar high will doom your fledgling defense industry as you have to officially reject the product which doesn't achieve minimum requirements. Gökdoğan should have been rejected according to your requirements. CATS should have been rejected it is worse than MX-15. At the first iteration, you should set the bar as low as you can without jeopardizing the operation and accept anything more as a bonus.

 

[Philips]

This is wrong there is no guarantee(and most likely will fail) that you will achieve the same range as 120C5/C7 on your first try. Putting the bar high will doom your fledgling defense industry as you have to officially reject the product which doesn't achieve minimum requirements. Gökdoğan should have been rejected according to your requirements. CATS should have been rejected it is worse than MX-15. At the first iteration, you should set the bar as low as you can without jeopardizing the operation and accept anything more as a bonus.

Read my post carefully before responding. This post of yours is full of strawman and shifting the goalpost.

 

[TheInsider]

There is no need to read anything especially your meaningless posts. You want the airforce to set minimum requirements to the current capabilities of F-22/F-35 and that is unrealistic and won't happen. I expect the final capabilities of the TF-X to be similar to F-22/F-35 but that doesn't mean you should set the minimum requirements to that level. It is extremely risky anything can go wrong and TUSAS can fail to achieve that bar. It might come just a little short from the bar you set and you officially bind yourself with rejecting the fighter. You don't know what you are talking about. Just answer this yourself(and don't tell me shitty answers you came up with) how many 5th gen fighters does Turkiye designed and developed before?

Those requirements could have been achieved with KF-X-like fighter. Wrong there is no guarantee that you can achieve those requirements with a fighter like KFX. Those requirements are very ambitious for a fighter like KF-X. Korean requirements are way lower. What would have happened if Turkish airforce wanted a fighter like KF-X? Then the requirements would have been set even lower.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The targeted RCS value for the MMU/TF-X was -10 to -20 dBsm (0.1m2 to 0.01m2, low visibility/Low Observabelity). Already in his speech, Alb. YAY stated that beyond this, they will surpass themselves in the current conditions. Since RCS = 10 (Decibels/10), the resulting RCS value will be between 0.1m2 and 0.01m2. Experts with knowledge of the subject I consulted pointed out that the RCS value of 0.01/1m2 is reasonable and stated that if they came up with a target like 0.00001, they would not be convincing anyway. One of the experts commented on the subject, “It is surprising that they give a figure like -10 to -20 dBsm. Even in this design, stealth disappears at 30° and 140°. In other words, it would be more believable if they gave the dBsm value between 0-20,” he said.

Anadolu Kartalı 2021/2 Eğitimi Basın Günü Faaliyetinden Notlar

Gerçek harekâta benzetilmiş bir ortamda, pilotların, hava savunma personelinin ve kontrolörlerin harekâta yönelik eğitim seviyelerinin artırılması, müşterek ve birleşik harekât usullerinin denenmesi ve geliştirilmesi, gerçek harekât şartlarında kayıpların asgari seviyeye indirilmesi ve görev...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Huelague]

The targeted RCS value for the MMU/TF-X was -10 to -20 dBsm (0.1m2 to 0.01m2, low visibility/Low Observabelity). Already in his speech, Alb. YAY stated that beyond this, they will surpass themselves in the current conditions. Since RCS = 10 (Decibels/10), the resulting RCS value will be between 0.1m2 and 0.01m2. Experts with knowledge of the subject I consulted pointed out that the RCS value of 0.01/1m2 is reasonable and stated that if they came up with a target like 0.00001, they would not be convincing anyway. One of the experts commented on the subject, “It is surprising that they give a figure like -10 to -20 dBsm. Even in this design, stealth disappears at 30° and 140°. In other words, it would be more believable if they gave the dBsm value between 0-20,” he said.

Anadolu Kartalı 2021/2 Eğitimi Basın Günü Faaliyetinden Notlar

Gerçek harekâta benzetilmiş bir ortamda, pilotların, hava savunma personelinin ve kontrolörlerin harekâta yönelik eğitim seviyelerinin artırılması, müşterek ve birleşik harekât usullerinin denenmesi ve geliştirilmesi, gerçek harekât şartlarında kayıpların asgari seviyeye indirilmesi ve görev...

www.defenceturkey.com

Can you compare it with F-35 and F-22, in numbers. What are RCS of these Jets?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Can you compare it with F-35 and F-22, in numbers. What are RCS of these Jets?

RCS figures of aircrafts

 

[Huelague]

Than TF-X has a lover RCS than F-22.
What about RAM Material of the Plane? It has an effect on visibility of the plane too. Do you have their numbers too.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

It was reported that KFX will have 0,5m2 RCS and PakFa has (1-0,1)m2 RCS.

0,1-0,003 m2 TfX RCS figure is not bad when it is compared with other new aircrafts. In addition, the given figures for TFX are the targeted RCS values. The aircraft may have better stealthiness figures than initially planned one thanks to coating and paint materials

-10 dbcm: 0,1m2 RCS (TfX interest area)
-20 dbcm: 0,01m2 RCS (TfX interest area)
-25 dbcn: 0,003m2 RCS (TfX interest area)
-30 dbcm: 0001m2 RCS

 

[Spook]

"SPEAR/MIZRAK isimli bir füzeden oluşacak. SPEAR ismi ilk aşamada akıllara MBDA ürünü hava-yer akıllı mühimmatını getirmekte ancak Hava-Hava Silah Yükü bölümünde yer aldığından bu füzenin mili imkanlarla geliştirilmekte olan bir füze modeli olduğu düşünülebilir."

Maybe something that can be carried in large numbers internally?

 

[Spook]

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Test7 , Bro we should resize these images