TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Windchime]

Frame #0 was supposed to be a static test frame??? It sounds like it got waylaid somewhere along the line by non-engineering considerations.

Yes, that was what it was supposed to be (although GTU doesn't stand for "Ground Test Unit"), hence no flight control computers initially. They are taking risks that wouldn't have been taken by other more established players in the field of aerospace.

In the most extreme cases, the wings of this thing could snap under big loads and they wouldn't know that it will until it actually happens mid-air. I think the flight regime of GTU-0 would be pretty limited considering the unknowns.

 

[TheInsider]

Yes, that was what it was supposed to be (although GTU doesn't stand for "Ground Test Unit"), hence no flight control computers initially. They are taking risks that wouldn't have been taken by other more established players in the field of aerospace.

In the most extreme cases, the wings of this thing could snap under big loads and they wouldn't know that it will until it actually happens mid-air. I think the flight regime of GTU-0 would be pretty limited considering the unknowns.

That prototype has undergone full-size loading tests. Its wings won't snap under big loads.

Lastly, what I could say with absolute confidence is that the test pilots are taking the biggest risk here, flying a prototype that wasn't supposed to fly, a plane that hasn't gone through ground static tests, a plane controlled by one of the first Turkish flight control system of this scale, bar Hurjet. You guys probably have a great deal of respect for those TAI pilots, but I think they deserve it even more flying this thing.

This is wrong. Kaan prototype completed ejection seat tests, full-sized loading/static tests, inertia and static tests of control surfaces, landing gear fall tests, avionic tests in the system integration lab, fuel system tests, and engine tests.

 

[Windchime]

That prototype has undergone full-size loading tests. Its wings won't snap under big loads.

This is wrong. Kaan prototype completed ejection seat tests, full-sized loading/static tests, inertia and static tests of control surfaces, landing gear fall tests, avionic tests in the system integration lab, fuel system tests, and engine tests.

Thanks for the update. I've missed the report by Defence Turk from late last year and only just noticed since you've corrected me.

That's better, but flying GTU-0 is still a much riskier business compared to what other aircrafts have went through during their development. Using the same aircraft which was used for static ground testing and taking it to air is not a common practice. Also, flgiht control system tested via iron bird is obviously not subject to real operating conditions, and more importantly, it doesn't change the fact that it's one of the first Turkish manned, supersonic jet flight control system alongside that of Hujet.

Great deal of respect to the test pilots.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I guess I missed something. Are you sure the GTU-0 will fly?

 

[Spitfire9]

I guess I missed something. Are you sure the GTU-0 will fly?

I recall that when the wing load test was applied to A380 (150% of maximum load it was ever expected to encounter in service), the wing failed at 147%. Had it reached 150% but not failed, would it have been considered serviceable thereafter? What was GTU-0 subjected to in tests before being repurposed from static test to flying frame?

Having used it to enable a roll out ceremony to take place (objective achieved), wouldn't it better to repurpose it back to being a ground test frame?

 

[Saithan]

Thanks for the update. I've missed the report by Defence Turk from late last year and only just noticed since you've corrected me.

That's better, but flying GTU-0 is still a much riskier business compared to what other aircrafts have went through during their development. Using the same aircraft which was used for static ground testing and taking it to air is not a common practice. Also, flgiht control system tested via iron bird is obviously not subject to real operating conditions, and more importantly, it doesn't change the fact that it's one of the first Turkish manned, supersonic jet flight control system alongside that of Hujet.

Great deal of respect to the test pilots.

You mentioned earlier that Hürjet should have started earlier. I was thinking wouldn't we gain valuable knowledge and knowhow from starting production of Hürjet (light armed configuration/trainer jet). That could be useful for KAAN.

My point is that Hürjet has already flown, so we'd progres faster on that plane than KAAN. We'd uncover and test it's capabilities and truly progres in armed jet production.

I know some people mentioned Azerbaijan as potentiel customer, but that won't happen unless we have our own engine.

however the issue we have atm is that we need to update our own airforce and we need to gain intimate combat knowledge with Hürjet. Ascertaining it's limitations and capabilities and how far we can push it are also important.

 

[Windchime]

I guess I missed something. Are you sure the GTU-0 will fly?

That's a weird questiom, imo. GTU-0 was all that TUSAS had in hand when they were initially planning for the 26th of Dec. FF. If not with the GTU-0, what would've been flown, have you thought?

 

[Windchime]

You mentioned earlier that Hürjet should have started earlier. I was thinking wouldn't we gain valuable knowledge and knowhow from starting production of Hürjet (light armed configuration/trainer jet). That could be useful for KAAN.

My point is that Hürjet has already flown, so we'd progres faster on that plane than KAAN. We'd uncover and test it's capabilities and truly progres in armed jet production.

I know some people mentioned Azerbaijan as potentiel customer, but that won't happen unless we have our own engine.

however the issue we have atm is that we need to update our own airforce and we need to gain intimate combat knowledge with Hürjet. Ascertaining it's limitations and capabilities and how far we can push it are also important.

The problem is that development of MMU flight control system is running concurrently with Hurjet flight control system development and flight testing. Most optimally, they would've had time to complete Hurjet and use experience gained from it to develop MMU.

I'm not saying that they aren't doing exactly that right now, but right now, since the two programs are runnung concurrently, it's closer to a live feedback-loop between the two programs. It probably works, but there's, again, higher risk involved. For most of these kind of big engineering projects, there are almost always a project review after its conclusion.

On top of that, what you're saying is very much correct, but those things are even more true in case Hurjet development commenced earlier. That's why I think an earlier development of Hurjet would've been much better, mostly because of risk management reasons. It would've also had more opportunities to capture the export market.

 

[Saithan]

The problem is that development of MMU flight control system is running concurrently with Hurjet flight control system development and flight testing. Most optimally, they would've had time to complete Hurjet and use experience gained from it to develop MMU.

I'm not saying that they aren't doing exactly that right now, but right now, since the two programs are runnung concurrently, it's closer to a live feedback-loop between the two programs. It probably works, but there's, again, higher risk involved. For most of these kind of big engineering projects, there are almost always a project review after its conclusion.

On top of that, what you're saying is very much correct, but those things are even more true in case Hurjet development commenced earlier. That's why I think an earlier development of Hurjet would've been much better, mostly because of risk management reasons. It would've also had more opportunities to capture the export market.

As it was mentioned earlier Hürjet is a project by TAI (private venture), and if Hürjet is to progres further and faster it's necessary to have some orders in the book already.

As you pointed out currently the experience from the Hürjet that is flying is likely being used for KAAN. But imo that will end at a certain point maybe even within a year.

I compare it with the race between the rabbit and turtle, but reality will catch up.

 

[Dosirak]

That's a weird questiom, imo. GTU-0 was all that TUSAS had in hand when they were initially planning for the 26th of Dec. FF. If not with the GTU-0, what would've been flown, have you thought?

As I said, Mr. Kotil either misled the people or simply lied. The head of TAI seems to have a habit of doing this. He initially claimed Hurjet will fly in Dec, 2022 and it didn't fly in that month. Then he claimed March 18, 2023 will the date when Hurjet would take off from the ground, but It didn't happen either. It was only April, 2023 that Hurjet made her first maiden flight. This kind of delay is completely normal, but it does make Mr. Kotil an unreliable source of information in regard to FF.

Therefore, I take Mr Kotil's claim about FF of any manned project of TAI with a healthy dose of scepticism.

However, it really doesn't matter GTU-0 flies today, tomorrow or anytime this year. An actual prototype will be built in accordance with the initial product baseline once CDR activities are carried out and Turkish Air Force only expects an actual prototype of TF-X KAAN to perform her maiden flight by late 2026.

I have always had my doubt about TAI's manned aircraft project schedules, but the development timeline looks quite reasonable if you could forget about GTU-0 and the fact that Turkey is trying to develop & integrate own turbofan engine to the platform within the same timeframe.

 

[Kartal1]

Therefore, I take Mr Kotil's claim about FF of any manned project of TAI with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Not only manned... We have another example with Anka 3 that was supposed to fly in Mart-May 2023. I don't mind if the first flight have to be postponed, but Kotil's statements are really misleading. My take on his statements is that he is doing it mainly for internal consumption and he knows very well what is the situation on the projects and their state of development/maturity. I prefer to hear that KAAN will not fly this year instead of listening to lies.

 

[Spitfire9]

Not only manned... We have another example with Anka 3 that was supposed to fly in Mart-May 2023. I don't mind if the first flight have to be postponed, but Kotil's statements are really misleading. My take on his statements is that he is doing it mainly for internal consumption and he knows very well what is the situation on the projects and their state of development/maturity. I prefer to hear that KAAN will not fly this year instead of listening to lies.

Is he being pressurised to announce good news prematurely?

 

[Kartal1]

Is he being pressurised to announce good news prematurely?

I can't talk from his name so I can't answer this question. Maybe yes, maybe no, but there are facts pointing at the fact that he is unreliable source regarding issues like dates, time estimates etc.

 

[what]

As I said, Mr. Kotil either misled the people or simply lied. The head of TAI seems to have a habit of doing this. He initially claimed Hurjet will fly in Dec, 2022 and it didn't fly in that month.

It's politically motivated, many of our projects were aimed to be launched for the elections or at least to have big announcements in time for the elections.

 

[Spitfire9]

It's politically motivated, many of our projects were aimed to be launched for the elections or at least to have big announcements in time for the elections.

The plot seems to be fairly transparent to me. Is Kotil being pressurised to get Kaan into the air against his better judgement? Why was GTU-0 repurposed from static test bed unless it was to roll Kaan out to the nation early? I presume that taking GTU-0 out of commission as a test bed would prejudice the development process, so actually slow the programme down. If that is what has happened, that is ridiculous.

 

[Merzifonlu]

It's politically motivated, many of our projects were aimed to be launched for the elections or at least to have big announcements in time for the elections.

In my opinion, Mr. Kotil's statements are not motivated by politics. He makes such statements to create public pressure on TAI employees. I'm sure he also knows what reasonable timeline are for projects.

 

[boredaf]

Not only manned... We have another example with Anka 3 that was supposed to fly in Mart-May 2023. I don't mind if the first flight have to be postponed, but Kotil's statements are really misleading. My take on his statements is that he is doing it mainly for internal consumption and he knows very well what is the situation on the projects and their state of development/maturity. I prefer to hear that KAAN will not fly this year instead of listening to lies.

I'd add T-929 to that list, I don't think that prototype was actually ready at all and that is why we haven't heard a single thing about it since then.

 

[Zafer]

Erdoğan government currently does not need any additional political leverage that may come from defense industry achievements. However defense industry achievements can help greatly in foreign politics.

On the other hand Mr Kotil's or any other official's seemingly ambitious statements and constantly being in the spotlight can serve the purpose of setting milestone targets that pressure TAI personnel into moving faster which is a very good thing. They are heroes of Turkish people, mind your words talking about them.

 

[duveil]

Hi I have been following this thread for the last 2 years and I admired mostly because of the comments backed by solid data. So I never thought to be a member because of my lack of engineering knowledge. I just read it to understand technical details. Now I see comments like “we weren't great before this goverment”. So I thought maybe I can chip in too. Here it is.We are not great now either. We are working on it but we are way back right now. I hope we can achieve asap. I read this forum for a long time and I didnt understand the specific of the kaan engine deadlines . When TAF can send operational kaan jets with local engine for a mission is not clear. Maybe by 2035 . It is not bad but also it is not a achievement for s 20＋ years goverment. And thanks everyone around this thread. This is the only place I find tech info to understand general news about defence industry.

 

[Dosirak]

the purpose of setting milestone targets that pressure TAI personnel into moving faster which is a very good thing.

It never ends good when the top management hurries engineers to finish a project. Hastily finished engineering projects usually don't produce a quality product which makes the customers unhappy.

However, I don't think TAI as an organisation has that kind of culture, unlike Boeing.