TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Nilgiri

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Yes I knew about that part bur

So I didn't get stuck on that. I'm talking about geometry which Nilgiri explained.

Basically, the spine is a big bigger than similar aircraft?

Yeah a bit bigger perhaps, but I see no issue..... its a baked in issue to begin with when you have two engines vs one especially
With one engine you can harness more of the intrinsic advantage in the spine being more flush to begin with given the engine centerlines with the cockpit naturally.

With two engines, the cockpit always has to jut out bit from body, otherwise making everything flush is just way too heavy design penalty.

One can notice the similar trade-off Su-57 and J-20 had to do here too along with F-22.

So it is design consideration rather than design concern IMO.

W.r.t the glass treatments, its a bit like tinted windows for a VIP car, can see out, not easy to see in....radar is partially absorbed and some is also reflected in more coherent (and thus low observable) way than glass letting it through and bouncing off pilot, seat, panels etc and give a much larger radar return and IR signature too.

Astronaut visors, sunglasses etc similar thing (but more to protect whats beneath)....just optimized to different wavelength.

TFX has all of this baked in and sorted out as best as it can be from what I can see (trust me I heard exact same shoptalk for F-22 before with the way its canopy sticks out from some angles many years ago, from both say F-117 purists and F-15 purists).

I would use 99+ times more manhours at this point on the AESA radar compared to canopy stuff basically.

Since non-optimal AESA (channel leakage, insufficient modes, improper mode, handling or selection logic etc) has chance to release 99+ times more emission than canopy+spine ever could.


The glas is not the problem as it is teansparent to radio waves. The problem is what's behind the glas, which is the cockpit. The cockpit bieng made out of flat surfaces in straight angles will act like a retro-reflect in essence. All aircrafts have this problem.

What is normally done is to coate the canopy with a transparent conductive film such that the shape of the canopy reflects away the incoming radio wave. The most common such material is indium tin oxide. You see these material even on commercial aircrafts but mainly for de-icing of cockpit windows.

Yup bascially where I was coming from is that the curved nature of the glass itself is not a reflector issue...given its material.

But yes the next part is what lies beyond the glass (pilot, MFD, cockpit panelling etc) and that is where the glass treatments come in.

i.e Absorb as much as possible in Radar and IR range, and rest reflect in more coherent way (one incident curved surface of the glass) than you otherwise would have (tons of incident curved surfaces behind the glass).

Decent further read:
 

Nilgiri

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I disagree. Simulations will provide good results. It is not like a simulation result and real measurement results will differ a lot. Even amateurs can make decent calculations. Experts can do really precise calculations. I don't think engineers at Dassault or LM will have any problem calculating the RCS of naked KAAN very precisely with the tools/software at their hands.

Lets agree to disagree then.

Yes simulations + predictions are getting lot better, these will still always have some number of noticeable error/uncertainty ranges given number of assumptions and asymptotic issues that are present in the transforms for say Nearfield to Farfield modelling from what I remember from my last deep delves into the subject. These can vary from small to large depending in the real world conditions too (where assumptions break down).

Especially when you make the geometries more complex and also increase the incident wavelength closer to the size of the aircraft itself (given the resonance issues). Or the "tricks" the source country may opt to include inherent to parts of the geometry details to give more characteristic signature that would not be captured by sims that do not have access to this info when constructing say the overall mesh and assuming homogeneity/isotropic there instead.

Nothing beats final RCS signature and final base dB level verification and also verification of what happens with your own radars regarding it, that will be kept close with the country and also serve as reference to how much later RCS reduction (with things like you mentioned earlier with the RAM) helps further.

That's the reason for continued luneberg lens use (past training reasons etc) by say F-22's flying around kadena/okinawa even though they know the Chinese could predict where the RCS range is to some decent enough degree....and test the longest wavelengths onboard their destroyers etc. i.e Preventing exact readout of exactly how low it actually is and stuff you have tinkered with on top (with say the longer wavelengths in mind that get better at detecting this size aircraft to begin with).
 

Afif

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yeah. it's only $350(?) millions a pop. who wouldn't buy it(that assumes it's available for export)?

Tempset will be available for export.
But I don't see that with NGAD.
 

kyrios

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Forgive me for little knowledge about Turkish Military Industries and its geopolitics.
My main hobby is not military related but sport. Thing dragged me into this forum was "flying armenian" by TB2.

Please enlighten me why no indigenous ejection seat? It means you can upset US but not to UK?
ATM, let me repeat, ATM, UK is more important to Turkiye than USA?
Why? How? Wouldn't you confront more to US due to their foreign military base? Syiria and Iraq?
While UK only has base in Cyprus?
 

Iskander

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Forgive me for little knowledge about Turkish Military Industries and its geopolitics.
My main hobby is not military related but sport. Thing dragged me into this forum was "flying armenian" by TB2.

Please enlighten me why no indigenous ejection seat? It means you can upset US but not to UK?
ATM, let me repeat, ATM, UK is more important to Turkiye than USA?
Why? How? Wouldn't you confront more to US due to their foreign military base? Syiria and Iraq?
While UK only has base in Cyprus?
I'm not very good at technical issues either. But as for the Armenians, I won’t be too modest here. So what is this “flying Armenian from TB2”?
Yes, the ejection seat is not made in Türkiye. And the engines too. But what do the Armenians have to do with it? Are you saying that they were made in Armenia? ;)
 
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dBSPL

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KAAN main subcontractors and program partners:

GHGCj0ZWwAApTmE



The KAAN program involves the participation of over 200 different local subcontractors, and cumulatively involving over 30,000 labor force. The largest multidisciplinary engineering project in the history of the Republic.
 
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TheInsider

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Engaging incoming missiles are still a threat. I would not omitting that. Just reduce the size.
There will be no way to outrun missiles in the future with advanced propulsion like scramjets. High-powered lasers will counter missiles. You may argue fighters make use of that advanced propulsion too but at that velocities, you can't just make big turns, unlike an A-A missile that can do a 60G turn.
 

TheInsider

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Lets agree to disagree then.

Yes simulations + predictions are getting lot better, these will still always have some number of noticeable error/uncertainty ranges given number of assumptions and asymptotic issues that are present in the transforms for say Nearfield to Farfield modelling from what I remember from my last deep delves into the subject. These can vary from small to large depending in the real world conditions too (where assumptions break down).

Especially when you make the geometries more complex and also increase the incident wavelength closer to the size of the aircraft itself (given the resonance issues). Or the "tricks" the source country may opt to include inherent to parts of the geometry details to give more characteristic signature that would not be captured by sims that do not have access to this info when constructing say the overall mesh and assuming homogeneity/isotropic there instead.

Nothing beats final RCS signature and final base dB level verification and also verification of what happens with your own radars regarding it, that will be kept close with the country and also serve as reference to how much later RCS reduction (with things like you mentioned earlier with the RAM) helps further.

That's the reason for continued luneberg lens use (past training reasons etc) by say F-22's flying around kadena/okinawa even though they know the Chinese could predict where the RCS range is to some decent enough degree....and test the longest wavelengths onboard their destroyers etc. i.e Preventing exact readout of exactly how low it actually is and stuff you have tinkered with on top (with say the longer wavelengths in mind that get better at detecting this size aircraft to begin with).
Chinese already know how stealthy a naked F-22 is. Chinese don't know how good is American RAM coating and paint which currently Kaan lacks. Americans are not trying to hide the geometry of the aircraft it is meaningless and can't be done. Current simulation programs are too good for that. An expert with a good software/tool can make a very precise calculation if not find the exact value. What you wrote is mainly applicable when you put RAM coating and paint on the naked aircraft. Simulations will fail because you don't know the exact chemistry and EM characteristics of the material. The US is trying to hide that and of course, wants to make stealth aircraft appear on civilian radars for safety reasons.
 

TR_123456

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KAAN main subcontractors and program partners:

GHGCj0ZWwAApTmE



The KAAN program involves the participation of over 200 different local subcontractors, and cumulatively involving over 30,000 labor force. The largest multidisciplinary engineering project in the history of the Republic.
Where is DefenceHub ?
Didnt we push them? :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬 :mad: 🤬




























😁😁😁
 

TR_123456

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There will be no way to outrun missiles in the future with advanced propulsion like scramjets. High-powered lasers will counter missiles. You may argue fighters make use of that advanced propulsion too but at that velocities, you can't just make big turns, unlike an A-A missile that can do a 60G turn.
The only way are lasers,powerful lasers.
We need to somehow find a new compact power source.
 

DBdev

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The only way are lasers,powerful lasers.
We need to somehow find a new compact power source.
Next gen engines are focusing on huge excess electrical energy generation to power their lasers including future F35 blocks. We must do the same with TF-35000 and PDU, generators made by Volt. Or we will end up changing the engines we just installed to catch up with everyone else when they begin using laser weapons.
 

TR_123456

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Next gen engines are focusing on huge excess electrical energy generation to power their lasers including future F35 blocks. We must do the same with TF-35000 and PDU, generators made by Volt. Or we will end up changing the engines we just installed to catch up with everyone else when they begin using laser weapons.
I meant a new power source,not the existing engines or fuel(no liquid fuel).
Maybe nuclear,small enough to fit in a fighter jet,dont know exactly how or what.
 

Lool

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Temil Kotil sharing more good news
Domestic ejection seat is coming soon and rec9nfirms that KAAN will be delivered by 2028 to the TAF
God bless that man🙏🙏🙏🙏

TAI General Manager Temel Kotil:
>Turkish engine is coming to KAAN in 2028.
>We, as TAI, will also build the ejection seat. He will come before. It will be 100% Turkish made.
>The 20 KAANs to be delivered in 2028 will be slightly larger than the F-16s. It has more modern systems than the F-35. They do not give F-35s to friendly countries. Then their only plane was KAAN.
>In 2030-2032, we will have aircraft that will meet the needs of 2-3 countries.



 

dBSPL

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I see such what ifs on the internet, but I think KAAN's under-wing carrying pylons are there for mission range or patrol time or to carry auxiliary systems with it to the same range rather than direct munition payload.

So imagine 2 XL Drop tanks and 2 Super Lightning on the pylons under the wing. The range and flight endurance of the aircraft will be maximized, and the two loyal-wings will increase to their mission range class. The aircraft will release the drop tanks and drones together with their pylons before entering risky airspace. It will continue to carry its own munitions in its internal weapon stations. Apart from that, there are already in-fuselage compartments for all avionics such as EOTS or EW systems.

1200px-TUSA%C5%9E_S%C3%BCper_%C5%9Eimsek.jpg


Super Lightning and similar highly maneuverable unmanned aircrafts, which can mimic fighter jets not only electronically but also with their flight envelope, will play an important role in the combat concepts of fifth generation jets. Especially in areas with air defense threats, these loyal wings can turn into a Swiss Army knife with a wide variety of mission loads.
 

Huelague

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Next gen engines are focusing on huge excess electrical energy generation to power their lasers including future F35 blocks. We must do the same with TF-35000 and PDU, generators made by Volt. Or we will end up changing the engines we just installed to catch up with everyone else when they begin using laser weapons.
What about a mini reactor which China has developed already.
 

Afif

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Could Kizil Elma be used as a loyal wingman?

I am suspicious about that. It is almost in itself a full package. (Specially with twin engine version)

Beside, TAI has its own autonomous loyal wingman project. (Their concept is more suitable IMO)
 

dBSPL

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Could Kizil Elma be used as a loyal wingman?
In fact, the MALD system is one of the pioneering systems that gave birth to the loyal-wingman concept, as it enables the fighter jet in question to penetrate air defenses while on a safe course, and by jamming or decepting the enemy air defense system directly from another source, and give opportunity to engage TEL vehicles and radars at almost maximum range of its munitions carried.


This is just one of the capabilities that can be created by higly maneuverable drones that can be carried under the wing in accordance with the super lightning type loyal wingman profile. It's an open-ended field of study.
 

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