TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

TheInsider

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Source please??
tf6000 is supposed to be a 20KN (4500lbf ) thrust level engine. So it is small.
TF-6000=6000lbf dry thrust. It is a completely new engine. It has nothing to do with TS-1400. A new core will be designed. There are also 2 more turbofan engine projects one is 120cm diameter class 29000lbf(might be higher this is the requirement) TF-X engine, the other is 80cm diameter class 15000lbf engine similar to EJ-200.
 
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Yasar_TR

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Asked TEI about that also Mr.Akşit told something similar at one of the online meetings. What we have currently is good up to 1600-1700 degrees celsius. Heat resistant coatings were applied and cooling channels were drilled accordingly for TS-1400. Calculations were done exclusively for TS-1400. Those will change for bigger turbofans.

Bu proje yeni değil. Hazırlık safhası ve altyapı oluşturacak teknolojik çalışmalar 2005e kadar gidiyor. 2013de ilk defa Hamitabat güç santralinin türbin kanatçıklarının verilmesi ile hız kazanıyor. Şuan sahip olduğumuz teknoloji 1600-1700 dereceye kadar kanatçık ömründen ödün vermeden 120cm çap sınıfında motor üretimine yetiyor. TS-1400den sonra değişecek şey tek-kristal veya alaşım kimyası değil. Kanatçığın üzerine deldiğin soğutma kanalları şuan üzerinde çalıştığımız motorlar için optimize edilecek. Ayrıca daha gelişmiş termal bariyer kaplamalar(araştırmanın ciddi bir kısmı bu aşamada buraya yönelmiş durumda) kullanılacak ama özünde şuan paralel olarak 3 farklı turbofan(evet 3 farklı büyük turbofan motor projesi başlatıldı ve paralel yürüyor biri de TF-6000) motor tasarlamamamızı sağlayan kimyası, reçetesi ve üretim metodu belli teknoloji özünde aynı kalacak. Zaten elimizde bunu yapacak kapasite olmasa kalkıp da TRMotor diye şirket kurmaya ve 3 turbofan motor projesini paralel yürütmeye kalkışmazdık. Bunu bilenler biliyor. Rusyanın da bu nedenle ağzı sulanıyor zaten. Yoksa Rusya 1600 derecelere doğrultusal katılaştırılmış kanatçıklar ile zaten çıkıyor (senin mantığa göre bizim tek kristal Rusyanın doğrultusal katılaştırılan kanatçıklarından kötü, o zaman neden tek kristal ile uğraştık biz?) ama ömürden ciddi taviz veriyor. Biz de aynı şekilde o sıcaklıklar civarına ve çaplara doğrultusal katılaştırılmış kanatçıklarla çıkabilirdik, illa da tek kristal gerekmiyor. Belki bizimki 50 derece düşük olurdu ama olurdu. Ama o zaman kanatçık ömründen ciddi taviz vermemiz gerekirdi.

Kanatçıklar büyüdükçe tek kristal üretmek zorlaşıyor bu nedenle döküme verdiğin 100 kanatçıktan belki 50si belki daha azı kalite kontrolü geçebiliyor. Çünkü kalite kontrolde tek kristal yapıda deformasyonlar belli bir seviyenin üzerinde tespit edilirse kanatçık reject oluyor. Bu nedenle büyük kanatçıkların fiyatı ciddi tuzlu olacak ve üretim verimliliği TS-1400 kanatçıklarına kıyasla daha düşük olacak.
What you have written in Turkish sounds feasible and logical. But if it is your own opinion it is still void of source material. Or is this what you were told by TEI? You of all people should be most aware that what makes forums like this and it’s writers believable are the source materials they share.
Russian DS blades reach 1650 degrees Celsius. Our TS1400 spec shows turbine temperature of 1450 degrees Celsius. That is what is given in IDEF in black and white. TS1400 is a turboshaft engine. So it should not be compared to a large diameter Single Crystal bladed engine. Now you are saying that we have reached 1600-1700 degrees Celsius. Which one are we to believe? Do you have a source? I never said our SC blades are worse than Russian DS blades. But if TS1400 has a maximum turbine temperature of 1450degrees C, than it is not as good as a Russian DS blade in terms of temperature limit it can work at. But lifecycle wise an SCB should be better than a DS blade. Which I think is the case with our TS1400. These are two different engines. Russians have reached the limit of performance you can get out of a DS blade albeit with a detriment to their engine lives. That is why they are searching to develop an engine with SCBs.
You also claim that our blades can be suitable for an engine with a diameter of 120cm. Is that the outside diameter or fan diameter?if it is fan diameter. Then that is huge. Where is the source for that?
I fully agree with your last paragraph. I have already stated these facts in my previous posts.
To reach 1827 degrees in an Izdeliye 30 engine with SCBs will take quite some time and money.
The f110 engine lookalikes we are trying to produce at the moment, have a potential of 34-35000lbf thrust. The current 29000lbf f110 engine has a turbine inlet temperature of 1510degrees Celsius. It has a turbine fan diameter of around 80 cm. (total outside diameter of engine is just under 120cm) So this type of engine can be easier to manufacture for us.
Not only will it be more difficult to produce the bigger single crystal blades, but it will be difficult to find the right coating and cooling duct geometry for optimum results.
TF-6000=6000lbf dry thrust. It is a completely new engine. It has nothing to do with TS-1400. A new core will be designed.
6000lbf dry thrust will give around 9-11000lbf with afterburners. So it is a small engine. If you took ts1400 and re designed the inside for an axial flow turbofan you would get a 9-10000lbf engine. ( not my words İbrahim Sunnetci’s) . You are right it would have nothing to do with ts1400 apart from it’s size and diameter.
 
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Cabatli_TR

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The current 29000lbf f110 engine has a turbine inlet temperature of 1510degrees Celsius. It has a fan diameter of around 80 cm. (total outside diameter of engine is just under 120cm)

A small correction bro. F110 fan diameter:118cm.

Screenshot_20210901-175651_Opera beta.jpg
 
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Yasar_TR

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Kanatçıklar büyüdükçe tek kristal üretmek zorlaşıyor bu nedenle döküme verdiğin 100 kanatçıktan belki 50si belki daha azı kalite kontrolü geçebiliyor. Çünkü kalite kontrolde tek kristal yapıda deformasyonlar belli bir seviyenin üzerinde tespit edilirse kanatçık reject oluyor. Bu nedenle büyük kanatçıkların fiyatı ciddi tuzlu olaCak.
Less than 50% yield is very low. That means we need to go a long way before we reach 85%+ levels. These blades, especially the larger ones take along time to manufacture. In order to join the top league of single crystal manufacturers club we need to hit 90% at least.
It is also important to be able to drill cooling ducts in to the blades without destroying them.
Even though we try to cool blades it is also a fact that the higher the temperatures of air leaving the turbine the more efficient an engine is. But the hotter the blades get the less life is left in them. So it is a matter of finding the sweet spot whereby a compromise is reached.
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Cabatli_TR

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If you took ts1400 and re designed the inside for an axial flow turbofan you would get a 9-10000lbf engine. ( not my words İbrahim Sunnetci’s)


Although there are some differences between west and east block engines in terms of performance, diameter/thrust ratio and maintenance periods, the max tested thrust power that an engine can give according to engine diameters can be estimated at "certain intervals" by looking at its Western and Eastern equivalents If there isn't a serious tech gap in turbine and blade tech. The diameter of a turbofan engine with 6000lb dry thrust will not be much different from its counterparts with some differences. Therefore, the thrust value of 10000lbf that Mr. Ibrahim mentioned is the value that a turbojet or fan engine with an average fan diameter of 60cm(the diameter of TS1400) can reach by using afterburner and this figure perfectly match with the thrust target of TJ6000. That's why I gave the type and diameter comparison of certain engines in the "Turkish propulsion project" topic and presented my conclusion about the TJ6000 in this context. From there, you can see in which classes Turkish engines that is being under development can take place.
 

Yasar_TR

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what is a 6th generation single crystal superalloy?
As turbine inlet temperatures go higher and higher in our quest to get more out of a gas turbine, we need to find super alloys that will be able to withstand the ridiculously high temperatures attained in the turbines. Ruthenium is a rare earth metal that is in the same group as the platinum in periodic table. It is used for hardening platinum and palladium. Due to it’s specific properties it is also used in nickel super alloys like TMS238. TMS-238 is a promising candidate alloy for future turbine blade applications because it exhibits excellent properties. This type of new alloys are branded as 6th gen.
 
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Yasar_TR

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Ismail Demir has answered some critical questions on the TFX engine. He has stated that even though previously, we had some issues with RR on the production of an engine suitable for TFX, we are now in a position that these issues at present, are no longer valid. So the ball is at RR’s court. Going forward on the engine side he said there are options:
1. To jointly produce an engine with RR
2. To use an engine that is available at the moment. But there are none that will satisfy our performance needs.
3. To produce our own engine. In order to be self sufficient we have great emphasis on this.

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Gary

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in regards to TFX what will be the spec of the engine???

I heard it will be the General Electric F110 before being replaced by domestic one.

my question is
1.what will the final thrust spec of the local made engine
2. will there be any modifications to the F110 to deliver more thrust.
 

Yasar_TR

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in regards to TFX what will be the spec of the engine???

I heard it will be the General Electric F110 before being replaced by domestic one.

my question is
1.what will the final thrust spec of the local made engine
2. will there be any modifications to the F110 to deliver more thrust.
Looking at the engine design office, TRMotor‘s published engine pictures, it will have a lot of similarities with the F110GE132 engine. Especially the long chord blisk fan configuration used.
This engine develops 32000 lbf thrust. But has a potential of 33–35000lbf Thrust.
Going forward, for a true 5th generation plane, a 35000lbf engine is the minimum we should be aiming for.
This plane is smaller than f22 and definitely much smaller than SU57 which use f119 of 35000lbf and Izdeliye30 of approximately 39-40000lbf engines respectively. So it is only logical to expect an engine of the caliber of 32-35000lbf thrust for the Turkish Fighter.


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Gary

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This plane is smaller than f22 and definitely much smaller than SU57 which use f119 of 35000lbf and Izdeliye30 of approximately 39-40000lbf engines respectively. So it is only logical to expect an engine of the caliber of 32-35000lbf thrust for the Turkish Fighter.
oh that make sense, could it able the TFX for supercruise???
 

Hexciter

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in regards to TFX what will be the spec of the engine???

I heard it will be the General Electric F110 before being replaced by domestic one.

my question is
1.what will the final thrust spec of the local made engine
2. will there be any modifications to the F110 to deliver more thrust.
F-22 has 84000 lbs of MTOW and powered by 35000 lbs engines.
If TFX will have 70000 lbs MTOW, and then 29000 lbs will be enough
If TFX will have 77000 lbs MTOW, and then 32000 lbs will be enough
So the existing F-16 engines enough for a start up. This gives you time to develop an indigenous one(s).
 
E

Era_shield

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in regards to TFX what will be the spec of the engine???

I heard it will be the General Electric F110 before being replaced by domestic one.

my question is
1.what will the final thrust spec of the local made engine
2. will there be any modifications to the F110 to deliver more thrust.
The current spec is 2 x 35000 lbf for the domestic engine.
 
E

Era_shield

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so no upscaled core or something??? it will be stock F110 GE-129 am I right ??
Still unknown, but whatever it is there will be a whole lot of domestic tech in it which has been in development for this engine for more than 10 years.
 

TheInsider

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Turkish national engine will be similar to F110 but it will also have differences. There will also be many surprises and improvements. The national engine will have up-to-date technologies like 3D additive manufacturing, advanced blisk production, a monolithic compressor section, national single crystal blades and coatings,
The current spec is 2 x 35000 lbf for the domestic engine.
No official contract requirement is 29000 lbs. TRMotor thinks it can achieve 35000lbs and sets that number as a target.
 

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