TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[adenl]

I like the twin engined prop UAV on Mr Akar’s left. It has a look of a mix of Hurkus and Aksungur about it.

I think it is a model of a Turkish plane from the 40's

 

[Glass🚬]

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

View attachment 6984

What is the plane in the lower right corner?

NU.D 40, very little is known about it.

 

[Indos]

The office looks very nice and modern.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1300302324523577345

I don’t think we will have any problem building the plane with all the technical help from BAE Systems and the know how we have accumulated building f35, f16 etc. Most important part of the plane is the engine. Without it, all of this is immaterial.
With Altay we made the mistake of not concentrating on the engine when we were building the body. We thought we would have no problem acquiring engines.
At least with TFX we are working on an indigenous engine. But to be on the safe side I would have preferred a production line set up with either RR or GE with all parts being produced in house and freedom to sell to third parties. This was already agreed to, by RR. But as we insisted on holding the IP rights as well, RR deal did not progress.
But to put all our eggs in to one basket is a risky move. If TEI falters or can’t make the engine ready in time we will be left in limbo again. Russians have been working on their SU57 engine for years. First Izdeliye 30 engine was tested November 2016. Still not expected to be fully operational until 2022-23. This is a factory that is already building AL-41F engines. We will be building our first turbofan engine! !

 

[adenl]

I don’t think we will have any problem building the plane with all the technical help from BAE Systems and the know how we have accumulated building f35, f16 etc. Most important part of the plane is the engine. Without it, all of this is immaterial.
With Altay we made the mistake of not concentrating on the engine when we were building the body. We thought we would have no problem acquiring engines.
At least with TFX we are working on an indigenous engine. But to be on the safe side I would have preferred a production line set up with either RR or GE with all parts being produced in house and freedom to sell to third parties. This was already agreed to, by RR. But as we insisted on holding the IP rights as well, RR deal did not progress.
But to put all our eggs in to one basket is a risky move. If TEI falters or can’t make the engine ready in time we will be left in limbo again. Russians have been working on their SU57 engine for years. First Izdeliye 30 engine was tested November 2016. Still not expected to be fully operational until 2022-23. This is a factory that is already building AL-41F engines. We will be building our first turbofan engine! !

I don't get it why people think Turkey will develop a turbofan engine that can compete with the latest and greatest? IMO an engine in the class of the F119 is the best Turkey can develop and produce by 2030 and should aim for that. Do not expect F-135/izdeliye 30/WS-15 like thrust engines before 2035. At the least/worst expect Turkey to develop and produce a F110-GE-129/132 like engine with corresponding thrust by 2030.

The size and dimension figures given to us about the TF-X are very similar to the Flanker airframe. With improvements in metallurgy and construction methods but with a larger cross-section because of the internal weapons carriage, the TF-X should not weigh more than an additional 2 tonnes over the basic SU-27 (16000kg). At 18 tonnes empty weight with the same fuel load as an SU-27 of 9000kg and with a full air to air loadout of 6 BVR and 2 WVR missiles, such a configuration should not weigh more than 28500kg. Equipped with two F119 like 15 tonnes thrust engines, this gives a TWR in full air-superiority mission of greater than 1. (1.05)

 

[Yasar_TR]

I don't get it why people think Turkey will develop a turbofan engine that can compete with the latest and greatest? IMO an engine in the class of the F119 is the best Turkey can develop and produce by 2030 and should aim for that. Do not expect F-135/izdeliye 30/WS-15 like thrust engines before 2035. At the least/worst expect Turkey to develop and produce a F110-GE-129/132 like engine with corresponding thrust by 2030.

The size and dimension figures given to us about the TF-X are very similar to the Flanker airframe. With improvements in metallurgy and construction methods but with a larger cross-section because of the internal weapons carriage, the TF-X should not weigh more than an additional 2 tonnes over the basic SU-27 (16000kg). At 18 tonnes empty weight with the same fuel load as an SU-27 of 9000kg and with a full air to air loadout of 6 BVR and 2 WVR missiles, such a configuration should not weigh more than 28500kg. Equipped with two F119 like 15 tonnes thrust engines, this gives a TWR in full air-superiority mission of greater than 1. (1.05)

We are building a 5th generation fighter aircraft. It IS the latest and the greatest technology that is in use today. If we are not going to aim for a truly 5th gen air craft why even try?
Tusas managing Director Temel Kotil himself said that we are trying to build a plane that is somewhere between a F22 and a F35 even though it may not be as sophisticated in it’s electronics as a F35 and not as agile and fast as a F22.
In terms of building an engine that would be suitable for a plane like TFX we need as powerful an engine as we could manage to build. The operative word here being “manage” .
We know that TEI knows f110ge129 inside and out. After building t700 and ts1400 engines’ most critical hot parts, if we did not respect copyright issues we would build this engine, as is, in no time.
But the target is building an engine that is legal and that is powerful enough to cope with a 5th generation plane’s power requirements. So an engine design that resembles F110GE132 with it’s 32500lbf thrust rating was chosen. GE states in their site that this engine has potential to achieve 35000lbf thrust.
If you check the size, weight and specs of f119 and f110/132 you will find them very similar. Previous a P&W engine the latter a GE engine. 119 having a 2 spool 3 stage fan 6 stage high pressure compressors.; f110 having a 2 spool 3 stage fan and 9 stage high pressure compressors. So TR Motor and TEI are actually working on an engine that IS the best for TFX.

 

[Zafer]

I don’t think we will have any problem building the plane with all the technical help from BAE Systems and the know how we have accumulated building f35, f16 etc. Most important part of the plane is the engine. Without it, all of this is immaterial.
With Altay we made the mistake of not concentrating on the engine when we were building the body. We thought we would have no problem acquiring engines.
At least with TFX we are working on an indigenous engine. But to be on the safe side I would have preferred a production line set up with either RR or GE with all parts being produced in house and freedom to sell to third parties. This was already agreed to, by RR. But as we insisted on holding the IP rights as well, RR deal did not progress.
But to put all our eggs in to one basket is a risky move. If TEI falters or can’t make the engine ready in time we will be left in limbo again. Russians have been working on their SU57 engine for years. First Izdeliye 30 engine was tested November 2016. Still not expected to be fully operational until 2022-23. This is a factory that is already building AL-41F engines. We will be building our first turbofan engine! !

The engine seems to be the hardest part to make but in a discussion made a few years back about the plane Japan is making somebody brought up that the Japs will have the hardest time pulling off the sensor fusion. Any ideas how we can cope in that department?

 

[Nutuk]

Making such products will never be easy (if it was every country would make them).

But is that not the edge that put some nations in front of other nations? We should never give up to pursue these high end technologies

 

[Kartal1]

The easiest way will be to integrate somehow the TFX with the TEMPEST project and create a platform in which different subsystems and munitions can be integrated according to the needs of the UK and Turkey.

 

[Indos]

I would say Turkey should concentrate their turbo jet development on cruise missile and then UAV. TFX should be aimed at receiving imported capable engine since the start. If some how Turkey can make turbojet engine for fighter plane, then it will be a bonus. This is the best way IMO to avoid Altay fate while in the same time keep progressing with jet engine development.

 

[Zafer]

Better be late than be with foreign components.

We have the UAVs existing and coming to cover a lot of bases so some delay in TFX and tank developments is tolerable. We are also not paying for off the shelf whole systems anymore so the money saved there will be pretty much enough for development projects. And it pays in a lot of ways when you do stuff in house.
Despite some delays in many fields of development I believe with the pace of corporate entrepreneurship we will leapfrog big hurdles in the coming half decade of uphill movement after which the path will all be downhill.

 

[Indos]

Better be late than with foreign components.

We have the UAVs existing and coming to cover a lot of bases so some delay in TFX and tank developments is tolerable. We are also not paying for off the shelf whole systems anymore so the money saved there will be pretty much enough for development projects. And it pays in a lot of ways when you do stuff in house.
Despite some delays in many fields of development I believe with the pace of corporate entrepreneurship we will leapfrog big hurdles in the coming half decade of uphill movement after which the path will all be downhill.

If the delay is too long, it means you have to buy completely foreign fighters. I would rather play safe than putting all eggs in one basket.

 

[Zafer]

If the delay is too long, it means you have to buy completely foreign fighters. I would rather play safe than putting all eggs in one basket.

High capability unmanned systems mitigate the risk of ending up with no domestic subsystems in the short to medium term. Both with TFX and MBT. It adds a good deal of waiting capability. Sooner or later we will make it. We only need back ups to close gap until we make it. UAVs are made for it.

 

[Indos]

High capability unmanned systems mitigate the risk of ending up with no domestic subsystems in the short to medium term. Both with TFX and MBT. It adds a good deal of waiting capability. Sooner or later we will make it. We only need back ups to close gap until we make it. UAVs are made for it.

Well, I hope your President and Defense Minister has such determination and think the way like you do.

 

[adenl]

If the delay is too long, it means you have to buy completely foreign fighters. I would rather play safe than putting all eggs in one basket.

You gotta start somewhere. Otherwise the Turkish defense industry would be in a limbo like the Indonesian defense industry

 

[Anmdt]

I would say Turkey should concentrate their turbo jet development on cruise missile and then UAV. TFX should be aimed at receiving imported capable engine since the start. If some how Turkey can make turbojet engine for fighter plane, then it will be a bonus. This is the best way IMO to avoid Altay fate while in the same time keep progressing with jet engine development.

Cruise missile part is mainly done, Kale has almost completed the engine for SOM, working on Gezgin's meanwhile TEI will soon complete medium size TJ. What is missing on that class is Ramjet and Tübitak works on the tech for awhile.
It is very likely the prototypes and first batch will be powered by foreign engine, the national engine is mainly intended for platforms which engines will not be sold for (Jet powered UAV-UCAV).
Whether developed indigenous or with license /JV the national engine will be able to integrated on TF-X without much burden. Even TF-X project itself maybe considered as an interim step towards future UCAV, so money spent on there is not considered as waste.

 

[Indos]

Cruise missile part is mainly done, Kale has almost completed the engine for SOM, working on Gezgin's meanwhile TEI will soon complete medium size TJ.
It is very likely the prototypes and first batch will be powered by foreign engine, the national engine is mainly intended for platforms which engines will not be sold for (Jet powered UAV-UCAV).
Whether developed indigenous or with license /JV the national engine will be able to integrated on TF-X without much burden.

I have repeatedly said that Kale should be the one developing turbojet engine. Since SOM missile is a cruise missile so it doesnt need longer life span like jet engine for fighter. Jet engine for UAV is the way you guys learn how to make the engine has longer life span. Next step is building higher thrust jet engine for 5 generation fighter.

Any way, if Turkey has two jet engine producers in its early jet engine development stage, it will be not a good thing considering they both will compete for a small domestic market.

 

[Zafer]

Well, I hope your President and Defense Minister has such determination and think the way like you do.

I am thinking the way they do.

Several years back Baykar chief had already asserted that the F35 is the last of the unmanned fighters when TFX was well underway. So there is already a big bet on unmanned fighters.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have repeatedly said that Kale should be the one developing turbojet engine. Since SOM missile is a cruise missile so it doesnt need longer life span like jet engine for fighter. Jet engine for UAV is the way you guys learn how to make the engine has longer life span. Next step is building higher thrust jet engine for 5 generation fighter.

Any way, if Turkey has two jet engine producers in its early jet engine development stage, it will be not a good thing considering they both will compete for a small domestic market.

Kale is supported by P&W and RR. But not as experienced as TEI. They do produce certain parts of the f35 engine for P&W . It took them a long time (nearly 8 years) to produce a viable turbojet engine for the SOM and Atmaca cruise missiles.
TEI on the other hand is owned 49% by GE. They have extensive expertise in turbo jet and turbofan engines. They produce f110 engines in house with some critical parts coming from GE/USA. They are also the largest repair and maintenance centre of F110 engines in the area including 129 and 132 versions. As they have now produced the critical hot parts of TS1400 turbo shaft engine with single crystal technique and are now utilising 3D manufacturing technology they were capable of producing all these parts for the 238 units of T700 engines they are producing for the Turkish Blackhawk helicopters being built under license by Tusas.
They do not really compete for a small domestic market. As the managing director of TEI said ; There is not a western built civil aircraft flying that does not carry a TEI built part. So they are very well established with foreign engine manufacturers. Kale is not quite at the same level. But they do supply to foreign customers too. But they are well established with P&W with their prospective joint venture agreement.

Pratt & Whitney and Kale Aero sign joint venture pact

Pratt & Whitney and Kale Havacilik San, A.S., (Kale Aero) of Istanbul, Turkey, signed a memorandum of understanding June 16 at the Paris Air Show with the intent to develop a joint venture partnership...

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