TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Glass🚬]

 

[Mustafa27]

Why would we bring Pakistan and Malaysia into the project?
What can they bring to the project??

 

[Oublious]

Why would we bring Pakistan and Malaysia into the project?
What can they bring to the project??

money....

 

[triangle]

Every cent that gets brought in from the outside is a cent less spend by Turkey. Of course there is a limit of how much you allow foreign investment in such a project.

 

[Oublious]

Every cent that gets brought in from the outside is a cent less spend by Turkey. Of course there is a limit of how much you allow foreign investment in such a project.

Not only money but more defence cooperation will rise. Ther is much we do with Pakistan imagine Malaysia?

 

[Blackeyes90]

Every cent that gets brought in from the outside is a cent less spend by Turkey. Of course there is a limit of how much you allow foreign investment in such a project.

The West would be against a Turkish Pakistani coaperation because of close ties that Pakistan has with the Chinese. Chinese Airforce does regular exercises with the Pakistani Airforce and they learn western doctrines and armaments. If somehow Chinese get critical information on TF-X that belongs to the Pakistan in a future date it would be a catastrophe for the NATO and India. We already know what they did to the Russian planes they bought. They copied and made their own planes and equipment. If we are gonna choose partners and we should , we have to be carefull about the ramifications of those decisions. We must remember ! Major components of the first blocks of TF-X will be outsourced to other countries.

 

[Nilgiri]

The West would be against a Turkish Pakistani coaperation because of close ties that Pakistan has with the Chinese. Chinese Airforce does regular exercises with the Pakistani Airforce and they learn western doctrines and armaments. If somehow Chinese get critical information on TF-X that belongs to the Pakistan in a future date it would be a catastrophe for the NATO and India. We already know what they did to the Russian planes they bought. They copied and made their own planes and equipment. If we are gonna choose partners and we should , we have to be carefull about the ramifications of those decisions. We must remember ! Major components of the first blocks of TF-X will be outsourced to other countries.

Yah Turkey must hold certain things close as possible to its chest for time being...given its still part of NATO tech chain...and is in transition in lot of key things simultaneously (and at different stages) to indigenise and absorb+augment with its own RnD capability.

Pakistan recently put in request for German AIP tech, Merkel told them a curt no...because it was clearly a shoe-in for it to circuit to the chinese.

Turkey also has to think long term past Erdogan politics too. A country has to come first and be very pragmatic and secure in its direction and plan.

 

[Huelague]

Why would we bring Pakistan and Malaysia into the project?
What can they bring to the project??

Pakistan, some experience in aviation.

 

[triangle]

The West would be against a Turkish Pakistani coaperation because of close ties that Pakistan has with the Chinese. Chinese Airforce does regular exercises with the Pakistani Airforce and they learn western doctrines and armaments. If somehow Chinese get critical information on TF-X that belongs to the Pakistan in a future date it would be a catastrophe for the NATO and India. We already know what they did to the Russian planes they bought. They copied and made their own planes and equipment. If we are gonna choose partners and we should , we have to be carefull about the ramifications of those decisions. We must remember ! Major components of the first blocks of TF-X will be outsourced to other countries.

Like in any contract they can add a clausule that no foreign country gets near the aircraft, or trains with it, without permission from the Turkish side.
They PAF has kept the F-16 out of the way of Chinese eyes and hands, the same mechanism could be put in place for the TF-X, especially since Pakistan and Turkey enjoy better ties than Pakistan and the USA.

 

[Blackeyes90]

Like in any contract they can add a clausule that no foreign country gets near the aircraft, or trains with it, without permission from the Turkish side.

Yes off course. But how do you enforce it ? How would you know ?

 

[triangle]

Yes off course. But how do you enforce it ? How would you know ?

PAK-TUR ties are good enough for the the Turkish side to trust the PAF. If not they can have liaison officers present in PAF bases that keep an eye on those planes. But I'm sure it wont get that far.

 

[Saithan]

Let's not forget IK recent statement about Pakistans economy being dependent on China.

Still Pakistan needs help and investments and I think Pakistan will enforce safety measures because they know that they are too dependent on China.

Perhaps Turkey could have a small base in Pakistan 1.000 to do maintenance work and such together with PAF. They could then travel to different bases and such for operational support.

I'm thinking on Atak as an example here.

 

[Mustafa27]

TAI Composite Production Facility construction is apparently done, someone on wowturkey shared some images. Next is probably to get machines in there.

 

[Blackeyes90]

TAI Composite Production Facility construction is apparently done, someone on wowturkey shared some images. Next is probably to get machines in there.

View attachment 1832

View attachment 1833

View attachment 1834

Mustafa,enlarge those pictures will you ?

 

[Mustafa27]

Mustafa enlargen those pictures will you ?

I replaced the pictures now.

 

[Huelague]

What a great logic. There isn't any high way around my house, Pakistan is risky, exploitable.

The point is, you cant minimize the risk to zero.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

Yah Turkey must hold certain things close as possible to its chest for time being...given its still part of NATO tech chain...and is in transition in lot of key things simultaneously (and at different stages) to indigenise and absorb+augment with its own RnD capability.

Pakistan recently put in request for German AIP tech, Merkel told them a curt no...because it was clearly a shoe-in for it to circuit to the chinese.

Turkey also has to think long term past Erdogan politics too. A country has to come first and be very pragmatic and secure in its direction and plan.

Pakistan also needs to figure its stuff out.

This country has a weird habit of falling over its heels for literally any one extending a branch.

It's ironic because their own policy playbook (written in the 1960s) clearly argues that alliances are all capricious by nature. Yet be it USA, China, KSA, or Turkey, their leaders consistently break those clearly written -- and well thought-out -- concepts.

If anything, Pakistan should force a hard-break from both the US and China. It has a good geo-political position, so it can sustain a general posture of neutrality and non-interference. I'm not talking about the meek "see no evil, hear no evil, etc" type we see today, but a genuine, "we have principles -- we'll stick to them" kind of approach. It's totally lacking, and it's no surprise that everyone from Germany to Turkey sees it.

Let's not forget the schizophrenic approach Islamabad takes on Muslims. It cries and sings about Kashmir (literally), yet it's totally silent on the Uighers in China. The best was in Syria. It shamelessly backed Assad, yet that guy affirmed India's stance on Kashmir.

If Pakistan had a true neutral/self-interested posture, it wouldn't have trouble securing Western tech for its requirements (well, India might cause issues still, but at least China wouldn't be a factor). This country has zero national character or spine.

To be frank, Pakistan would get German AIP tech if it openly warns China about the Uigher situation. If you have enough steel in your scrotum to that, then you can be trusted with sensitive tech (and might need it Lol).

Yet, it shouldn't be hard carving an identity -- e.g., "We sit at the cross-roads of 3 great regions. We guard the prosperity South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East by supporting stability in our neighbours, and we maintain parity with our peers."

Anyways. I did have an on-topic question.

So, I know Turkey is trying to develop a turbofan for the TFX via TR Motor. Fair. But what about the Hurjet? Isn't there an opportunity (or need) here to develop an ITAR-free 92-97 kN design for a true, exportable lightweight fighter? If Pakistan was smart, I think it would actually try investing in that kind of engine (for its own requirements).

 

[Nilgiri]

So, I know Turkey is trying to develop a turbofan for the TFX via TR Motor. Fair. But what about the Hurjet? Isn't there an opportunity (or need) here to develop an ITAR-free 92-97 kN design for a true, exportable lightweight fighter? If Pakistan was smart, I think it would actually try investing in that kind of engine (for its own requirements).

This is good question. Turkish members can maybe answer this more (I remember there was quite a few details on various efforts made so far on this). RnD issues are notable given level and intensity of materials research and process control needed in this technology (I work in one very specific part of this, I have overall understanding of most other parts of it, but once you get further into details, it eventually turns to Greek for me like with anyone...hence the research and corporate team structures that have been developed over long time and experience).

If specific RnD consultants from established countries in the field are utilised, there is huge IPR issues to sort out too...ITAR is just if you work with US on it but there would be similar constraints with say UK and France.

This would potential be done in interests of time and also prioritization of where to invest the capital in the tech chain too as many have severe diminishing returns that need to be sequenced properly. This is all part of problem why China has had a real difficulty with it even though they have invested a huge amount of capital and research time into the area (and IP theft but thats another story)...and why Russian engines (with all the soviet heritage) are also not the top tier ones...not even close, especially given top tier performance really matters in military sector with something as crucial as propulsion.

Doing everything singlehanded will take too long, there is an immense number of permutations on lot of fundamental things that influence downstream design/adaptation for example.

It will be something to watch how different countries handle it.

 

[Reviewbrah]

https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/Eastern_Hemisphere_Wind_Tunnels.pdf

Turkish Aerospace signed an agreement with Aiolos Engineering Corporation, based in Canada, for the construction of a ‘’Subsonic Wind-tunnel’’ at the Turkish Aerospace facilities in Ankara to support the MMU/TF-X and other future programs. Turkish Aerospace aims to build one of the World’s three ‘’Subsonic Wind-Tunnels’’, and to activate it in 2022. Turkish Aerospace also previously signed a contract on 19 July 2018 with the company Aircraft Research Association (ARA), an independent research and development organization providing a range of specialist services to the worldwide aerospace industry, of the UK regarding the risk reduction phase of the wind tunnel tests for the TF-X aircraft.

"Turkey presently lacks a sufficient infrastructure in high-speed wind tunnel testing, BAE Systems capabilities in this field have been planned to be utilized during TF-X’s wind tunnel test phase especially at supersonic speeds."

A Look at Current Status of Turkish MMU/TF-X Program

The TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) a proposed single-seat, twin-engine all-weather multi-role fighter being developed by Prime Contractor TUSAŞ/Turkish Aerospace with technological assistance from BAE Systems. Turkish Aerospace refers to this program as the Turkish Fighter (TF) and exclude...

www.defenceturkey.com

"Officials from the TAI stressed that they are interested in several products from ILOT, including the supersonic wind tunnels. TAI representatives are also set to visit the ILOT headquarters in Warsaw."

Turkish, Polish aviation giants mull cooperation in Ankara visit

The representatives of the 93-year-old Polish Institute of Aviation (ILOT) paid a three-day visit to Ankara on Friday, meeting officials from the Turkish...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[Combat-Master]

biosys is developing OBOGS

OBOGS | Biosys

www.biosys.com.tr