TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Nilgiri]

The guy leading Turkish GaN research and production

Ekmel Ozbay

Professor, Bilkent University, Ankara, TURKEY - 33.061 tarafından alıntılandı - Nanophotonics - Metamaterials - Plasmonics - Photonics Crystals - GaN/AlGaN Devices and MOCVD growth

scholar.google.com.tr

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjvhqul__r0AhWGSvEDHQqAARwQFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftr.linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Fab-mikronano&usg=AOvVaw0gfYrl4G7n6NmuFT1JHKPK

Yup I simply searched w.r.t Japan filter lol and found this particular subset (Turkish researcher that has some collab with Nagoya uni).

It can all be mapped branchwise in larger way simply doing the relevant searches....it depends on interest and time for it.

I have coincidentally been to Nagoya for conference done by the same university....involving a parallel stream of research (to space and comms science they are especially involved with, given JAXA has huge presence there).

Same with buddy who went there too with his thesis advisor at the time (who by the by is Turkish-Canadian and very well known in particular field in Canada high end research).

It is also about contacts you form with industry ppl while there....that is all part of what you don't really see directly in the published paper collaboration.

I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey has gotten some relevant machinery from Japan for "NANOTAM"

 

[Lonewolf]

Dude its wiki man. This list is quite incomplete.

I have literally been to a established top notch OEM (but under the radar so to speak) company's facility a number of times....west of Toronto.

They make Canada proud.... but even within Canada, few know about them...have to be in science + engg to know about it generally.

That facility that has long established name in aerospace (esp satellite) transistors and related IC.

Foundries, chipset assembly, larger AT you name it....done inhouse. They have even moved onto some satellites of small specific capability (that ISRO PSLV launched for them some years back iirc).

Machines they acquire and update with time. It is personnel and expertise that is key....where you have developed them and concentrate and network them and fund them, they will do the rest (capital machinery acquisition and process flow) as best they can.

As you exit the facility they have plaque commemorating all the huge space satellite projects they have been involved in (including India INSAT originally btw).

They are closely involved in JWST (soon to launch) for example.

It is not on this wiki list.

They don't work in the TSMC/Samsung/Intel/AMD threshold for mass-chipsets as you can imagine.

But what they do, they are extremely reliable and well known for.

There is no reason any industrially capable (old or new) country cannot establish with enough focus... such things over time.

They are government controlled ?? Cause all government controlled fab are there , and no i didn't said TR can't design stuff but they can't manufacture it , and if they want someone else to manufacture it then don't think that u can be best

 

[Cabatli_TR]

They are government controlled ?? Cause all government controlled fab are there , and no i didn't said TR can't design stuff but they can't manufacture it , and if they want someone else to manufacture it then don't think that u can be best

Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory
30 DECEMBER 2014

Bilkent News – Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory

 

[Tsenal]

Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory
30 DECEMBER 2014

Bilkent News – Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory

Don't bother replying to him. I already shared the same link with him but he seems to ignore any post that proves him wrong.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

The current delivery date for Hurjet is 2025. Most of the "fighter version" work is being done in parallel as it has already been stated that the aircraft will be much more than a trainer. In essence, we could see this happen a few years before 2030.

I will believe it when I see it. Developing an fighter, especially 4th gen fighter is no easy feat for the first time. There are a lots of learning, re-learning, mistakes and corrections. And Turkey hasn't designed a fighter jet from scratch before.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

We should have bought everything from outside like india amirite

You are already buying most of the stuff from outside. Engine, Lab consultancy, design consultancy, test facilities, avionics and what we do not know.
I am definitely not comparing Turkeys programme with India. India had her challenges. We were not in NATO and we have had to develop every single lab and testing facilities from scratch. That took more time to test the developed aircraft in the first place.

Turkey has agreements with test facilities, labs etc enabling it to test the AC. But even without these facilities, developing an "fighter" in 5-6 years ain't happening. Even for US, Russia it hasn't happened. I already said trainer version can happen by 2026.

 

[Nilgiri]

They are government controlled ?? Cause all government controlled fab are there ,

No they are not govt controlled...but they are heavily involved with govt + strategic so its fairly similar.

They are owned by honeywell now.

Honeywell Aerospace, Cambridge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can see their personnel in this clip around 25.40 minute mark:

Breakthrough sciences and technologies

Scientists Discovered A 2D Material That Is 10X Tougher Than Graphene Hexagonal boron nitride (h-BN) is officially the iron man of two-dimensional materials. It’s so resistant to cracking that it defies a century-old fundamental theoretical description of fracture mechanics that engineers still...

defencehub.live

Besides what does it really in end have to do with your argument using this wiki list and other stuff you are selectively employing?

I see Belarus, Brazil, Thailand, Philippines listed....among lot of others you could put in "newly industrialised country" etc.

It even says Belarus has 100 nm - 200 nm wafer size.

Which is the range you need for GaN radars today.

What exactly stops Turkey from acquiring in this range is all I am asking given they have already done the way harder work of assembling together the concentrated RnD team?

Or how does fabless route even impact on final quality of system anyhow?

Turkish radar lab and production does not exist for while more largely now?

You understand its like total production in the realm of ~ 1000 niche units in the end?

That is very different kind of thing in end for what a resourceful country can strategically concentrate on (which is exactly what COMDEV was and is)....to say mass commercial stuff in the millions of units.

Why not we just leave it as glass half full vs half empty (none of us have toured TR facilities involved closely and talked to people there at depth).....and we see with time how it goes?

and no i didn't said TR can't design stuff but they can't manufacture it , and if they want someone else to manufacture it then don't think that u can be best

So certain are you...

.....Always with you it cannot be done...

Hear you nothing that I say?....

- Yoda

 

[Glass🚬]

Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory
30 DECEMBER 2014

Bilkent News – Bilkent-ASELSAN Partnership Establishes Turkey’s First Commercial Chip Factory

How about starting to give thread banns? That jeet has become extremly annoying and his useless claims are piling up.

I will believe it when I see it. Developing an fighter, especially 4th gen fighter is no easy feat for the first time. There are a lots of learning, re-learning, mistakes and corrections. And Turkey hasn't designed a fighter jet from scratch before.

Turkey isnt India either lol What u failed to do in 40 years we will successfully do in 4 years, thats just the way it is.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

You are already buying most of the stuff from outside. Engine, Lab consultancy, design consultancy, test facilities, avionics and what we do not know.
I am definitely not comparing Turkeys programme with India. India had her challenges. We were not in NATO and we have had to develop every single lab and testing facilities from scratch. That took more time to test the developed aircraft in the first place.

Turkey has agreements with test facilities, labs etc enabling it to test the AC. But even without these facilities, developing an "fighter" in 5-6 years ain't happening. Even for US, Russia it hasn't happened. I already said trainer version can happen by 2026.

In fact, we can say that Turkey is climbing these ladders step by step. In the Aircraft development roadmap, Hürkuş, Hürjet and TfX go one after the other and during these processes, huge investments and test/measurement centers are established. The first product to fly at supersonic speeds (2022-23) will be Hürjet and this product will appear as a trainer at first. A combat or fighter version will be developed later. While developing this product, the steps were taken considering the capability to land and take off from an aircraft carrier. The data to be obtained from the Hürjet project will also serve as preparations for the first flight of TFX (2025-26). During the development of these projects, highly sophisticated investments regarding test and measurement centers such as supercomputers, aircrafts R&D engineering offices, a new aircraft assembly facility, lightning test system, subsonic and supersonic wind tunnels, EMI/ECM measurement laboratory, RCS measurement and analysis laboratory, composite production facility, etc. are done. Many of these investments have the capacity to be among the top 5-10 in the world.

Even if Turkey is not an India in terms of defense budget and population, we are at a very ambitious point in terms of the projects we have started and the capabilities we aim for. I do not think that project calendars are short because there is a serious time difference between the international media recognition of these projects and their official start. When the timeline of the projects is shared, it can be seen how engineering logical everything is.

 

[blackjack]

Let us not be too pedantic by being stuck on the “tense“ the sentence was formed.
@TheInsider is correct in saying TFX to be a better plane of the two. Instead of ”is” , he should have used “will be”.
But that doesn’t change the fact that the TFX is being planned to be a much more developed and improved plane than what f35 is today.
Yes, you can compare the two if you want to. Because you are taking f35 as a point of reference and you are aiming to produce something better than that.
“When finished TFX is going to be a plane that is somewhere in between f22 and f35.“
These are the words of the guy who is the boss of TUSAS.
In fact TFX will have a better Aesa radar than current f22. I don’t think US has any operational fighter planes with GaN based Aesa radar apart from some of the updated Growler version of F/A-18-EF if memory serves.
TFX has got few million more lines in it’s programming too. It will use laser weapons. The list can go on and on.
Of course f35 may get upgrades and improvements. But as it stands the target TFX has aimed for, is indicating a better plane.

The F-35 still undergoes upgrades https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/12/16/bae-f-35-electronic-warfare-capabilities/ more than likely it will have GaN EW modules because even Russia showcased 3 different aircraft EW suites in their Rostec 2014 book for their aircrafts. I dont even think I have to bother asking if Turkey is capable of creating a three stream cycle engine which the F-35 will later have, The F-35 did have DIRCM proposals but in case you havent heard they are also planning a mini-missile APS design called MSDM.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The F-35 still undergoes upgrades https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/12/16/bae-f-35-electronic-warfare-capabilities/ more than likely it will have GaN EW modules because even Russia showcased 3 different aircraft EW suites in their Rostec 2014 book for their aircrafts. I dont even think I have to bother asking if Turkey is capable of creating a three stream cycle engine which the F-35 will later have, The F-35 did have DIRCM proposals but in case you havent heard they are also planning a mini-missile APS design called MSDM.

Turkey integrates AESA-based EW sensors into the warships. The new version of the Koral system will also consist of AESA EW sensors. The aircraft nose radar developed for the F16 is a GaN-based AESA. The EW aircraft, which was developed under the name Air-SOJ, also includes AESA-based sensors (I think some elements will be GaN based sensors). In the roadway, all of the land based STR, EIRS, AIRS, FCR radars that will be delivered in 2021 and 2022 will be domestic GaN-based AESA radars. Therefore, I think that the BURFIS system developed for TFX in which the radar and electronic warfare sensors will operate in the same fusion, will also consist of GAN-based AESA technology. Meanwhile, TFX will have 4 GaN AESA radar systems with 360degree coverage, as well as embedded AESA EW GaN systems with 360degree sight angles. 2x35000lb turbofan engines will be more than enough to feed this whole system with high power.

Three big companies in Turkey are participating in the engine development process and a national turbofan engine with low bypass ratio, stealth and super cruise capability will be developed. Other than that, we do not have any information.

It is thought that the mini-missile system that SAGE has shown under TFX mock-up has the characteristics of APS similar to the US system you have mentioned.

 

[Yasar_TR]

The F-35 still undergoes upgrades https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/12/16/bae-f-35-electronic-warfare-capabilities/ more than likely it will have GaN EW modules because even Russia showcased 3 different aircraft EW suites in their Rostec 2014 book for their aircrafts. I dont even think I have to bother asking if Turkey is capable of creating a three stream cycle engine which the F-35 will later have, The F-35 did have DIRCM proposals but in case you havent heard they are also planning a mini-missile APS design called MSDM.

F35 is an over ambitious plane to say the least. The program cost is the most ever for any plane ever developed in the world.
Quote:
The F-35 program is expected to cost taxpayers a total of $1.7 trillion across its lifecycle, according to the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office’s 2020 estimate.
Unquote.

Watchdog group finds F-35 sustainment costs could be headed off affordability cliff

By 2036, F-35 sustainment costs could exceed the U.S. military's affordability parameters by $6 billion per year.

www.defensenews.com

In addition to all the tech and money that has been poured in to the program, there has been so much performance demand from the plane - conventional, carrier based and VSTOL stealth - that to incorporate all that in to the program has been a real challenge. It reminds me the English saying ; Jack of all trades, but master of none.
The paint work replenishment after every flight is costly and increases downtime and keeps planes’ operational time low. The oversized engine it uses has so many problems that a lot of planes are grounded waiting for engine change. It can’t fly supersonic too long because it destroys the paintwork. It’s stealth from the back isn’t that great. It has a system called ALIS that conveys real-time mission info to LM that is seen as a security loophole. You can not touch any system without LM consent. It is not great at dogfights .
Still it is a flying computer and the most electronically developed and innovative plane in the world.
But as it stands it has a lot of shortcomings. Until new upgrades and modernisation packs are introduced , on paper TFX is going to be a better plane. That is a fact. In reality and when the time comes that the said improvements are introduced to f35, then this statement “may” need to be changed. But not now!

 

[Huelague]

I will believe it when I see it. Developing an fighter, especially 4th gen fighter is no easy feat for the first time. There are a lots of learning, re-learning, mistakes and corrections. And Turkey hasn't designed a fighter jet from scratch before.

We do already with F-16.

 

[Huelague]

You are already buying most of the stuff from outside. Engine, Lab consultancy, design consultancy, test facilities, avionics and what we do not know.
I am definitely not comparing Turkeys programme with India. India had her challenges. We were not in NATO and we have had to develop every single lab and testing facilities from scratch. That took more time to test the developed aircraft in the first place.

Turkey has agreements with test facilities, labs etc enabling it to test the AC. But even without these facilities, developing an "fighter" in 5-6 years ain't happening. Even for US, Russia it hasn't happened. I already said trainer version can happen by 2026.

Its 30% of the stuff.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

In fact, we can say that Turkey is climbing these ladders step by step. In the Aircraft development roadmap, Hürkuş, Hürjet and TfX go one after the other and during these processes, huge investments and test/measurement centers are established. The first product to fly at supersonic speeds (2022-23) will be Hürjet and this product will appear as a trainer at first. A combat or fighter version will be developed later. While developing this product, the steps were taken considering the capability to land and take off from an aircraft carrier. The data to be obtained from the Hürjet project will also serve as preparations for the first flight of TFX (2025-26). During the development of these projects, highly sophisticated investments regarding test and measurement centers such as supercomputers, aircrafts R&D engineering offices, a new aircraft assembly facility, lightning test system, subsonic and supersonic wind tunnels, EMI/ECM measurement laboratory, RCS measurement and analysis laboratory, composite production facility, etc. are done. Many of these investments have the capacity to be among the top 5-10 in the world.

Even if Turkey is not an India in terms of defense budget and population, we are at a very ambitious point in terms of the projects we have started and the capabilities we aim for. I do not think that project calendars are short because there is a serious time difference between the international media recognition of these projects and their official start. When the timeline of the projects is shared, it can be seen how engineering logical everything is.

I am not sure if you had understood the gist of the my posts or not. Infact I agree with you on most of the points. I believe Turkey would be able to deliver an trainer version of Hurjet by 2026.

I am not even talking about TFX. What I differ and still stand by my point is a fighter version of Hurjet will take longer which I believe my estimate is 2030. Even TAI or the developer don't have an timeline for an fighter version now. And some of your compatriots are taking to trolling for the point.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

Without Israel ur defence industry would be trash. Also you have to prove what you said. Turkey is embargoed for 2-3 years. So ur statements are nonsense.

I have to prove what? And Turkey is embargoed for what? From getting F35. Not from getting components to make its fighter or systems or lab facilities. Isnt BAE an design consultant for TAI? It's definitely not wrong in this globalised world and I hope India had this opportunity to work with global design houses for the best Ac.

Israel being a small nation has her core strengths. She can't design an aircraft carrier or an fighter capable of landing on it or an 4th gen fighter. She can if she tried but she hasn't. Lavi was an prototype. Anyway no need to quote me again with baseless responses.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

We do already with F-16.

I have really no idea on what you mean sir. F16 is an LM bird. Turkey probably developed some subsystems for F16 so it would be easy for TAI you mean?

 

[Rajendra Chola]

How about starting to give thread banns? That jeet has become extremly annoying and his useless claims are piling up.

Turkey isnt India either lol What u failed to do in 40 years we will successfully do in 4 years, thats just the way it is.

I would be genuinely happy if Turkey can produce an "fighter" variant in 4 years and not an trainer. Then it means something to learn from Turkey to all world nations including India, US, Russia, China on how to design a design, prototype, test and induct an "fighter" in 4 years.

My comment was I said I believe Turkey could induct an trainer variant in 4 years. Since Mr. Glass has talked, it is right.

 

[Anmdt]

I would be genuinely happy if Turkey can produce an "fighter" variant in 4 years and not an trainer. Then it means something to learn from Turkey to all world nations including India, US, Russia, China on how to design a design, prototype, test and induct an "fighter" in 4 years.

My comment was I said I believe Turkey could induct an trainer variant in 4 years. Since Mr. Glass has talked, it is right.

Nobody says TF-X will be in service and flying in 4 years officially. Meanwhile Hurjet Trainer will be in service in 4 years. The project has started awhile ago despite of,it might had come to your realization nowadays, it dates back to 4 years and more ago.

Also don't forget Turkey has been adding stuff on F-16 and trying to localize the subcomponents as the domestic technologies mature. So there is a certain expertise on some the fields. But after all nobody fully makes a true fighter on their own without taking any bit of expertise (including major or minor) from abroad, except the US and Russia i would say. If they say they do, then it means they conceal something.

You are already buying most of the stuff from outside. Engine, Lab consultancy, design consultancy, test facilities, avionics and what we do not know.

I consider this part as an insult for people currently working on full-time to make 2 advanced wind tunnels in opertation by 2023-24 (one supersonic - TAI, one subsonic - Tubitak), one RCS measuring lab - Tubitak (you may simply search the thread for reference). Meanwhile Turkey already holds some facilities for entry level testing and thanks to the TAI's past with some european countries the test consultancy is received when needed so far.

And people who in past worked for radar testing facilities, and RCS measurement labs since 2005.

And yes nobody denies Turkey has got the expertise from UK, TAI and BAE has signed the cooperation and consultancy agreement officially and publicly.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I am not sure if you had understood the gist of the my posts or not. Infact I agree with you on most of the points. I believe Turkey would be able to deliver an trainer version of Hurjet by 2026.

I am not even talking about TFX. What I differ and still stand by my point is a fighter version of Hurjet will take longer which I believe my estimate is 2030. Even TAI or the developer don't have an timeline for an fighter version now. And some of your compatriots are taking to trolling for the point.

I understood very well what you wanted to say and commented within this framework but generally the main reason for such prejudices of foreign members about Turkish aviation projects is their lack of konwledge about Turkey. Contrary to what you think, the Hürjet project started in August 2017 and the project continues very successfully with a delay of approximately 6-8 months. The critical design phase is over and the first prototype is currently in production. Next to the trainer variant of this aircraft, a "combat" variant that will provide close air support will also reveal and these studies are carried out simultaneously. It is probable that these variants will appear with a difference of a few years. Although TAI has all kinds of capabilities in this regard, I do not think that the Air Force will want a Hürjet-based "fighter" because TFX, which is the favorite of the air forces, will have met with the sky in the years Hürjet entered the inventory and will be subjected to extensive tests in order to get inventory approval. Likewise, Baykar and TAI's unmanned aerial superiority and SEAD/DEAD supersonic fighter aircraft will be in the sky in the same years.

Turkey is one of the few countries that can modernize its F16 aircraft to Block-70 standard. The last leg of this modernization, the GaN AESA nose radar prototype, is counting down the days to make test flights on the Akinci drone and this radar will later be integrated into F16 aircraft. Although Hürjet is being developed to be able to land and take off on aircraft carriers, Turkey's ultimate goal is to land and take off supersonic fighter and combat drones on aircraft carriers, and Turkey is currently developing supersonic drones to hunt manned aircrafts, thus planning to add a new dimension to air warfare. Hürjet on the other hand will be used as a 2nd line manned combat aircraft to provide air support to ground units. If the air force really wants a one-seat fighter aircraft, then Hürjet will evolve into this in a short time.