TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

GoatsMilk

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The best way to build your own fighter jet is to build what you can and buy what you can't, while running programs in the background to fill this gap in over the long term.

Thats why the Turkish defence industry has seen so much success, is because she didnt make the mistake in thinking she was going to build everything at once.
 

Nilgiri

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I'm afraid you've likely lost most of the readers in all that insinuation, hinting and jogging peoples brains, tenderly though it may have been :)

I know it must have been mentioned in the thread somewhere, but at this stage does it really matter if Turkey has a domestic engine for our jets, or is everything about the design and making it fly with any engine ?

Hürkus is flying, but do we have a any flying around with domestic engine ?

Propulsion (of any nature) is tough nut to crack, and those that have cracked it the most are in position to know it best. This difficulty scales the most in gas turbines given their extremely high power/weight and RnD intensity.

They (relative tech fountainheads) will thus leverage it against you wherever possible (either simple market price + financial bargaining power or sensitive withholding at worst).

In the transition period of the cold war end to post cold war (90s and early 2000s)....2 out of 3 things the US hit India on (the most impactful) were propulsion related: Cryogenic rocketry (w.r.t how they squeezed Yeltsin + vulnerable 90s Russia on this) and also GE f404 engine for LCA project (which would later become tejas).

Both set back larger ecosystems by 10 years at least....still being felt in India. Most outside India do not understand just how cautious India proceeds with US relationship on certain key areas as result....things are generally referenced with France and Israel first these days as India has better bargaining power with them developed.

But critical provider sanction (or sanction potential) has no easy way but to take it on chin, find+develop alternatives as best as possible and backwork to make things inhouse as much as possible...so your own autarky and negotiation power (in any future tech bargaining) is improved.

In India's case the whole thing (with US) cascaded from autarky position in cold war era and consequent nuclear weapons and missile delivery programs to begin with.

This is not forgotten, US simply fed economically into PRC into the interim and one fine day see it as frankenstein now...so they are back in more positive relationship mode with us. But we are bitten once, even twice on many things...and will hedge with others....and we are in position to do so reasonably more than ever now.

=================

Let me bring this back to TFX....and programs of highest nature for any country (5th gen, propulsion, sensors etc)

Turkey simply has to follow same process, backwork as much as possible to fill out its cards in its deck....with enough A K Q J.

The more of those you have, the more "heavy" your deck will be with time...the better you can play.

You can make the design able to fly "with any engine" in jet engine realm only so much.

At some point you have to pick something and you do detailed design for it and do design freeze to then develop and mature next phases.

The engine provider (if foreign and not close/allied/strategic political partnership) then essentially has your sensitive parts in vice grip somewhat...as they know you will layer over phases (based on picked engine) and their sanction on such engine at later stage really throws massive spanner in works.

That is precisely what happened with India 98 nuclear tests and F404 for LCA. There was all kind of clauses in who's IP belongs to who in the end (with GE essentially having final say on it).....offices (Indian engineers were at) were completely closed off leaving even their logbooks, work notes and everything else (that was their engg + creative process) inside.

That is how it can work with these things in the end if you are not careful or simply have little choice w.r.t priorities and decisions in strategic sphere.

It is imperative for 🇹🇷 ....or any developing country in general that wants to grow and have strategic weight in world long term for its security, best realised + optimised power level and overall bargaining power.... to:

A) Make do and play smart now on tech supply chain and tech gestation
B) Pick and prioritise strategic things well and develop as much as it can in the near and mid term.

Always assume the world will turn colder and lonelier in future....i.e plan for worst case scenarios as the default.

Doing so that way....any Warmth + friendship you do actually materialise with others will just be accounted for easily (and you are in control of the relationship from your end) ...i.e a welcome extra on top...but you are not reliant on it being that way.

I think the lone wolf mythos fits quite well in the end.

How much of it actually is done and is successful on these fronts ....its case of waiting 10, 20 years or more sometimes to see what is realised. That is the nature of the beast.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Ayşe Temiz from TAI;

"During the conceptual design phase of the TFX MMU National Combat Aircraft, SSB had requested from us to evaluate product development and technology development separately, and to construct technology development projects for national critical systems with low Technology Readiness Level. In this context, we adapted the Technology Readiness Level measurement method used by NASA and implemented it in the project. Now we use this measurement method in our own developed products. For example, low-visible coatings are a critical technology for the National Combat Aircraft. In this context, we conducted basic research studies at low Technology Readiness Level with universities and institutes. Low-visible coating efforts have reached Technology Readiness Level 3. One of our university professors carried out this project within his own company. Now, we are taking these works a little further and carrying out a separate project for covering the canopy. We also support this work with our own resources. In addition, within the scope of a TÜBİTAK 1004 project, we are trying to bring the maturity level of technology to Technology Readiness Level 6."
 

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Ayşe Temiz from TAI;

"The criteria we created within the scope of the Technology Readiness Level measurement method allow us to evaluate the evidence that enables us to minimize the relevant risks. We are talking about creating big players domestically for all the critical systems we use in our products. In this context, we consolidate the needs of the relevant critical systems in all our developed platforms. I can mention the example of the hydraulic system. We evaluated and consolidated the hydraulic system needs of all our platforms one by one and prepared localization roadmaps. We are trying to create the main players who can develop this system, subsystem and components domestically. In the same way, we prepared the canopy roadmap. We also evaluate our product projections in line with our company's goals. In line with these projections, we try to identify the right company or the right stakeholder in a way that will make the companies sustainable."
 

tayyare

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This thread is constantly being flooded with Turkey vs India comparions and other irrelevant nonsense. Can we please stop this?
 

Nilgiri

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This thread is constantly being flooded with Turkey vs India comparions and other irrelevant nonsense. Can we please stop this?

Yes if there were any interim questions that were off topic (and now deleted etc)....if members could ask me in Indian section (say coffee thread etc or cay bachesi etc) that would be best.

Let us return to TF-X and related topics only here.
 

Combat-Master

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@Test7
 

Yasar_TR

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A total cliché question, how much of that "engine" have we completed ?

I know TEI has said we've developed the core engine, but how much else progress has been made ? If anyone have an infogram depicting the engine and showing percentage wise and with colors completing it would be really helpful.
Only company that can do any meaningful work on this engine is TEI. According to their Managing Director, as they have not been asked to do any work on it, they have done nothing.
A core turbojet engine has been produced. Yes. But this engine was a radial flow turboshaft engine. (TS-1400)
A jet fighter’s engine has to be an axial flow turbofan. We haven’t even got a small turbofan produced yet, not to say we are on our way to produce a 35000lbf thrust engine. There are rumours that a 6000lbf small turbofan is being worked on. But nothing concrete has come through so far.
Yes we have managed to produce single crystal turbine blades. But these were for a small diameter turbo shaft engine. We have been told that the turbine entry temperatures on TS-1400 has reached 1450 degrees Celsius, and the blades can withstand these temperatures. But an engine the size of F110 will have much bigger diameter and bigger blades and will need to work at much higher turbine entry temperatures. We may be looking at 1700 - 1900 degrees Celsius being generated in the engine. (Even the Russian AL41 series reaches 1750 degrees C) So the single crystals will have to withstand these temperatures and stresses the bigger engine imparts on to the blades. They have to have specially designed cooling ducts and ceramic coating to bring down temperatures so that the inset of creep is delayed.
All this means , a lot of work need to be done along the way to our indigenous engine. But where are we with all this? Either we are keeping it under wraps for the time being or otherwise there could be another Altay engine tragedy to come yet.
I hope it is not the latter.
 
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TheInsider

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There is a growing interest for TF-X several countries might be official partners after the TF-X rollout in 2023.
 

Lool

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There is a growing interest for TF-X several countries might be official partners after the TF-X rollout in 2023.
Why should Turkey accept partners after TFX rollout?
Turkey is searching for financial partners, as far as I know, in order to fund the aircraft production. However, if Turkey already produced the prototype and all the necessary infrastructure with its own money, then there is no need for partners; instead, it is better to sell a downgraded version of the aircraft without any pre-conditions
 
E

Era_shield

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Why should Turkey accept partners after TFX rollout?
Turkey is searching for financial partners, as far as I know, in order to fund the aircraft production. However, if Turkey already produced the prototype and all the necessary infrastructure with its own money, then there is no need for partners; instead, it is better to sell a downgraded version of the aircraft without any pre-conditions
It would still bring the price of each production airplane down if there are more customers.
 

TheInsider

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Why should Turkey accept partners after TFX rollout?
Turkey is searching for financial partners, as far as I know, in order to fund the aircraft production. However, if Turkey already produced the prototype and all the necessary infrastructure with its own money, then there is no need for partners; instead, it is better to sell a downgraded version of the aircraft without any pre-conditions
Partners will order TF-X which means there will be guaranteed exports. Roll-out is still an early phase for TF-X development. It will be a good opportunity to inject some capital into the project and share risks and bring costs down.

Likely partner candidates are Azerbaijan, Qatar, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Ukraine.
 

Cabatli_TR

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ITPS to train flight test team for TF-X fighter, Hurjet and Heavy Attack helicopter projects

The International Test Pilots School has been selected by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to train the flight test team for its new TF-X fighter, Hurjet advanced jet trainer and Heavy Attack helicopter projects. Ten Graduate Course students will join the 2022A course in January in addition to TAI students already attending the 2021B course. The award of the contract in the face of stiff international competition further cements ITPS’s position as a leading provider of flight test education.

In awarding ITPS one of the biggest flight test training contracts in the school’s history, TAI is the latest in manufacturers selecting ITPS for their fighter projects. Already at ITPS are a Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) team for the KF-21 Boromae Fighter and an Airbus Defence team for Future Combat Aircraft System.

 

KalkiOfToday

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A total cliché question, how much of that "engine" have we completed ?

I know TEI has said we've developed the core engine, but how much else progress has been made ? If anyone have an infogram depicting the engine and showing percentage wise and with colors completing it would be really helpful.
Sorry for being too harsh on my very first post but the truth is TEI doesn't have anything close to a fully functioning turbofan engine for military aircraft. If TEI is saying that they have already developed the core of the turbofan than it's either that TEI has employed some alien to do the work or they are straightforward lying to you guys. The first sign of partial\full success of developing a complex technology like a turbofan core is that you'll get a lot of scientific research paper published by the scientist of that country. I've searched the internet for research paper published by the turkish scientist but sadly i didn't find any. If anyone here have some research paper regarding the development of turkish turbofan than please share i'll be very much thankful.
 

kenny

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Sorry for being too harsh on my very first post but the truth is TEI doesn't have anything close to a fully functioning turbofan engine for military aircraft. If TEI is saying that they have already developed the core of the turbofan than it's either that TEI has employed some alien to do the work or they are straightforward lying to you guys. The first sign of partial\full success of developing a complex technology like a turbofan core is that you'll get a lot of scientific research paper published by the scientist of that country. I've searched the internet for research paper published by the turkish scientist but sadly i didn't find any. If anyone here have some research paper regarding the development of turkish turbofan than please share i'll be very much thankful.
Do you have any information about TEI? Including who your partner is?. Do some research about TEI.
 

KalkiOfToday

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Do you have any information about TEI? Including who your partner is?. Do some research about TEI.
As i said, I've searched the internet and i couldn't find any research paper regarding their development of turbofan engine. If you have any than please share
 

Yasar_TR

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Sorry for being too harsh on my very first post but the truth is TEI doesn't have anything close to a fully functioning turbofan engine for military aircraft. If TEI is saying that they have already developed the core of the turbofan than it's either that TEI has employed some alien to do the work or they are straightforward lying to you guys. The first sign of partial\full success of developing a complex technology like a turbofan core is that you'll get a lot of scientific research paper published by the scientist of that country. I've searched the internet for research paper published by the turkish scientist but sadly i didn't find any. If anyone here have some research paper regarding the development of turkish turbofan than please share i'll be very much thankful.
Before you start blaming TEI with lying let’s get the facts straight.
TEI MD said that they have produced the core of a jet engine that leads the way to a turbofan. By producing the TS-1400 turbo shaft engine they have done exactly that. They have an indigenously designed and produced turbo shaft engine that works and is in integration stage to an indigenously produced “Gokbey“ multi purpose helicopter at the moment.
The TS-1400 is a radial flow turbo shaft engine. In order to try out the axial flow turbojet production, they produced the small TJ-300 turbojet engine that can power a medium range anti ship missile as an exercise of sorts. (This engine actually showed that it can lend itself quite well to practical applications.)
TEI also produces the T700 engine for the Blackhawk helicopters for Turkish defence forces. The hot sections and single crystal turbine blades of this engine is produced in house at TEI. It has more than 65% local production input.
TEI has the know how and expertise to produce turbofan engines. They have produced all the GE 110 engines used in Turkish and Egyptian F16 fighter jets. They do all the maintenance work on the F110-129 and F110-132 engines. TEI MD has openly stated that they can at TEI produce the F110 engine with over 50% local input level; with the rest being ancillaries that can be obtained from foreign sources.
There is a turbofan engine currently related to TEI (because of a patent application news has leaked) called TF6000. It has not been confirmed. But there are strong suggestions that this is an ongoing project at a very mature state.
Most of TEI’s indigenous work regarding Turkish military developments will never be published. They are not a university or a multinational engine design house that will publish their work for the benefit of their shareholders etc. Most of the work carried out is at ”state secret” level and under wraps due to foreign interference occurring in the recent months.
 

Yasar_TR

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As i said, I've searched the internet and i couldn't find any research paper regarding their development of turbofan engine. If you have any than please share
We are talking about a company that can do this:
We are talking about a company that can produce three-stage long chord blisk fan. A company that can produce parts for engines with additive 3D technologies.
And is this:
 

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