TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

Read most of them already , and my comparison is based on the level of tech achieved , most of post are general article with not much technical info , and others go into much detail , so I have to rely on sources which are credible .

If Turkish radar and EOTS are going to be better than f 35 and f22 , then where is your foundry ? Answer to that is you don't have , and it's not mocking but a common fact , as a GaN foundry without economy of scale is useless .

Second if u import MMIC for your radar or you design your chips and asks fabricator to manufacture them for you , then why haven't your specs of x band GaN MMIC don't even come into comparison among top 10 ????

Rest about EOTS , so the sensor chips for EOTS require fab foundry and u don't have that either , and again as u might take it as offensive , it's logical to not go for foundry with a small economy and no background in advanced fab .
Back to point , what are the basis of development of a EOTS when u don't have dual band seeker developed yet , it's the basis for that , leave alone being able to make best EOTS .

And though you might say that in future you will make huge technological jumps , but that requires a strong economy and a whole ecosystem which is backed up by that economy .

Let me make it more respectful for you , please could you care to reply with infographic regarding your Vivaldi antenna array unit for starters , as a wide band GaN radar being best in world won't use planar slotted array .

When Turkey wanted to use GaN tech, a lot of components were withheld by main producers. So it was decided to produce this tech in house. Infrastructure to produce GaN products was completed in Turkey by 2014. By 2016 , Aselsan started producing GaN based transistors. It took them over 10 years and cooperation with a number of top universities in Turkey. But today they have a factory that produces these products called:
Aselsan Bilkent Mikro Nano Teknolojileri Sanayi ve Ticaret A.Ş. (AB-MikroNano)

Enerjinin geleceği Galyum Nitrat ile şekillenecek

Enerji Günlüğü - (Sabiha KÖTEK - ÖZEL) İnsanoğlu silikon tabanlı çiplerden faydalanmanın sınırına dayandı. Sınırı aşmak için çalışmalar ise...

www.enerjigunlugu.net

 

[Yasar_TR]

MMU TF-X Programına Bir Bakış | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Hava Kuvvetleri'nin yeni uçağı olacak, TUSAŞ tarafından üretilecek hava üstünlük uçağı MMU / TF-X projesinin arka planına ve geleceğine bir bakış.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Worth a read as it looks in to the background of TFX.

 

[TheInsider]

Read most of them already , and my comparison is based on the level of tech achieved , most of post are general article with not much technical info , and others go into much detail , so I have to rely on sources which are credible .

If Turkish radar and EOTS are going to be better than f 35 and f22 , then where is your foundry ? Answer to that is you don't have , and it's not mocking but a common fact , as a GaN foundry without economy of scale is useless .

Second if u import MMIC for your radar or you design your chips and asks fabricator to manufacture them for you , then why haven't your specs of x band GaN MMIC don't even come into comparison among top 10 ????

Rest about EOTS , so the sensor chips for EOTS require fab foundry and u don't have that either , and again as u might take it as offensive , it's logical to not go for foundry with a small economy and no background in advanced fab .
Back to point , what are the basis of development of a EOTS when u don't have dual band seeker developed yet , it's the basis for that , leave alone being able to make best EOTS .

And though you might say that in future you will make huge technological jumps , but that requires a strong economy and a whole ecosystem which is backed up by that economy .

Let me make it more respectful for you , please could you care to reply with infographic regarding your Vivaldi antenna array unit for starters , as a wide band GaN radar being best in world won't use planar slotted array .

All of what you wrote is plain bullshit. We have foundries for both GaN modules and infra-red FPAs.

 

[Combat-Master]

Well i am not much into German saying ,but Google translate helps a bit , and u are quite right .

Technology isn't gonna stay the same till the tfx arrive and as a matter of fact , f 35 will also be upgraded regularly so the f 35 we see today and what it will be 10 yrs down the line won't be same , and here we are talking of America , who spends inconsiderately on defence .

They already have working program to replace DAS and EOTS , a friend of mine said that reports suggest that a GaN variant radar is already in use on some f 35 .


And I have followed Turkish defence and one hard fact is that you can't achieve same technological level with less than half the spending

Since you follow Turkish Defence, you would know that those key foundries were setup years ago - you can do a quick search in the search bar of this forum to find out more. =Or perhaps someone who is willing to give you more attention may post key points here.

 

[Saithan]

He's being pessimistic and that is all well. Please don't escalate it

I'm a pessimistic type as well, and since I know that I'll hold my breath (figuratively) while waiting for Hürjet to come rolling out and then flying.

 

[Nilgiri]

India spends 5% of the spending to go to space.

Well ISRO budget is about 2 billion USD.
Total govt expenditure in latest (ongoing) year is projected about 940 billion USD.
So its not anywhere close to 5%.
This is off-topic.

================================================

Simply with TF-X we let time pass and see how things go in the crucial stages to mature and realise...especially with Hurjet first.

It is too early to objectively make a call on too much qualitatively...with either grandising or diminshing intent.

It offers a huge amount of potential and most Turks can feel optimistic and proud (given realised infrastructure, personnel and outlay plan already).

That is only natural to any huge project at this level for any country.

Huge projects inevitably will have all kind of challenges and obstacles too....and folks should not get disheartened by those either.

Sometimes I feel people speculate and use emotion too much in early stage of something.

Simply be patient and see, know and record the maturities over time...

...speculation emotion (in either positive or negative direction) is better used elsewhere outside of science and engg disciplines ...especially ones you are not closely tied up to or up to date on.

 

[Zafer]

Well ISRO budget is about 2 billion USD.
Total govt expenditure in latest (ongoing) year is projected about 940 billion USD.
So its not anywhere close to 5%.

Think about average spending India made to achieve space goals compared to the US and you will see the truth.

 

[Lonewolf]

Didn't achieved same technological level , it was kind of a tiny payload . So no , we are not a exception too .

India spends 5% of the spending to go to space.

 

[Lonewolf]

Pretty basic stuff , and not fab but designing part , dude u gotta be kidding me , I don't blarb without reading stuff

ODTU MEMS, YİTAL, ABMikroNano, NANOTAM etc:Am I joke to you?

 

[Lonewolf]

It don't fabricate them , that's still outsourced .

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is list of foundry by nations , we have 4 ,which manufacturers our defence and few civilian electronics .

Not a single one in turkey , it's outsourced , and if u outsource manufacturing , then don't expect to be best in world

When Turkey wanted to use GaN tech, a lot of components were withheld by main producers. So it was decided to produce this tech in house. Infrastructure to produce GaN products was completed in Turkey by 2014. By 2016 , Aselsan started producing GaN based transistors. It took them over 10 years and cooperation with a number of top universities in Turkey. But today they have a factory that produces these products called:
Aselsan Bilkent Mikro Nano Teknolojileri Sanayi ve Ticaret A.Ş. (AB-MikroNano)

Enerjinin geleceği Galyum Nitrat ile şekillenecek

Enerji Günlüğü - (Sabiha KÖTEK - ÖZEL) İnsanoğlu silikon tabanlı çiplerden faydalanmanın sınırına dayandı. Sınırı aşmak için çalışmalar ise...

www.enerjigunlugu.net

 

[Lonewolf]

All of what you wrote is plain bullshit. We have foundries for both GaN modules and infra-red FPAs.

Mention their names and location please , it must be a surprise that turkey operates foundry and no one knows , and mind u I don't want those lab based machines which operates on too higher nodes to be useful in Direct application

 

[Lonewolf]

Since you follow Turkish Defence, you would know that those key foundries were setup years ago - you can do a quick search in the search bar of this forum to find out more. =Or perhaps someone who is willing to give you more attention may post key points here.

And no one in world knows of these foundries

 

[Yasar_TR]

It don't fabricate them , that's still outsourced .

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is list of foundry by nations , we have 4 ,which manufacturers our defence and few civilian electronics .

Not a single one in turkey , it's outsourced , and if u outsource manufacturing , then don't expect to be best in world

Just because you hava a list of some ”semi conductor” producing companies that doesn’t include a Turkish one is not proof that the GaN chips are not produced in house for Aselsan. Your list doesn’t differentiate between GaN and Silicone by the way.
Here are two articles published in Turkish 5 years ago , that clearly states that the above company that was set up with 30 million dollar capital, and it produces the GaN transistor chips for Aselsan. It includes production of chips that Turkey was purchasing and those chips that were not sold to Turkey. The whole process was “developed “ from scratch by Bilkent University and Aselsan.

Galyum nitrat temelli çipler ASELSAN için üretilecek | İnovatif Kimya Dergisi

Teknolojinin ve teknolojiye dayalı sanayilerin gelişimi açısından önemli bir rol üstlenecek olan Türkiye'nin ticari anlamdaki ilk çip fabrikası, ilk üretimini ASELSAN için yapacak. Bilkent Üniversitesi ve ASELSAN'ın ortaklığında kurulan ve savunma, uzay, haberleşme, enerji sektörlerinin ihtiyaç...

inovatifkimyadergisi.com

Türkiye’nin ilk ticari çip fabrikası AB Mikro Nano

Türkiye'nin ilk ticari çip fabrikası AB Mikro Nano

www.millisavunma.com

According to the below article , “Turkey has become one of the five countries in the world that could DEVELOP the technology of GaN based nano transistors and chips”
So the idea was not just buy in know how and machinery to produce. But to develop the technology to be able to further innovate it when it is needed.

Türkiye'de İlk Defa Galyum Nitrat Transistör ve Entegre Devre Üretimi Yapılacak

Aselsan ve Bilkent Üniversitesi tarafından kurulan Aselsan Bilkent Mikro Nano Teknolojileri Sanayi ve Ticaret A.Ş. (AB-MikroNano) şirketi Türkiye'de ilk defa Galyum Nitrat transistör ve entegre devre üretimi yapacak.

www.haberler.com

By the way we don‘t have to prove to you that we have foundries and production facilities as much as you have no right telling us that what we are saying is a bunch of lies.
You don’t have to believe what we say. But we don’t need you either, to disseminate untrue accusations. If you need to know about Turkish defence industry; by all means, come here and ask. Otherwise please stick to your own country’s sub forum.

 

[BTT34]

Pretty basic stuff , and not fab but designing part , dude u gotta be kidding me , I don't blarb without reading stuff

According to İbrahim Sünnetçi, GaN semi conductors are produced by ASELSAN( with Low temperature co fined ceramic technology their weigh are decreased.)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460527557665857546

 

[what]

@Lonewolf please use the edit function instead of posting 5 posts after the other within a couple of minutes.

 

[Tsenal]

It don't fabricate them , that's still outsourced .

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is list of foundry by nations , we have 4 ,which manufacturers our defence and few civilian electronics .

Not a single one in turkey , it's outsourced , and if u outsource manufacturing , then don't expect to be best in world

Aselsan-Bilkent Mikronano produces GaN transistors.

GaN will replace silicon and shape the future

haberler.boun.edu.tr

Turkey has decades of experience in semiconductor manufacturing with YITAL

YİTAL / Semiconductor Technologies Research Laboratory | INFORMATICS AND INFORMATION SECURITY RESEARCH CENTER

bilgem.tubitak.gov.tr

Instead of provoking and creating pointless arguments with Turkish users, you should ask the many knowledgeable users what you want to know.

 

[Nilgiri]

Think about average spending India made to achieve space goals compared to the US and you will see the truth.

I think I understand what you are saying....

It is also true many people put down, criticized and laughed at India's nascent efforts in space in the cold war.

They don't laugh anymore. It is important to have last laugh...esp with naysayers.

That era did not have internet and social media like today, so the atmosphere was somewhat different.



But overall similar for TF-X and other such projects for Turkey, you will get some nitpick negative naysayers, it comes with the territory of such project.

It is big commitment, it has made dedicated start, let us watch the project.

I say dedicated start as there is clearly objectively starting capital, organisations and infra given (in the larger TR defence industry which has proven credibility on lot of products)....compared to some others I have seen that simply make a project name but little else.

We simply need to see how it goes....and discuss things objectively as significant markers are evidenced.

I have always said results matter most in end.

Hurjet results will come first, and will establish lot of useful things to take forward with TFX.

That is why Hurjet is more closely followed by me.

 

[Nilgiri]

Mention their names and location please , it must be a surprise that turkey operates foundry and no one knows , and mind u I don't want those lab based machines which operates on too higher nodes to be useful in Direct application

Which RF range (for the AESA radar) and nm process range are you talking about for GaN transistors + IC et al.?

Let us establish those, then we can get to the nm range machines are available to Turkey (past and present).

It is nowhere near what large production commercial processors (fully silicon based) achieve.

The RF power density (and thus thermal consideration) of GaN is whole reason it need not get to those scales of say <14nm for IC chipset.

In fact nowhere close, I believe GaN IC's are in the 100nm area right now....maybe pushing to 80 these days....thermal considerations become far bigger criteria slowing this progress down.

This is anyway threshold stuff to push well past X, Ku K and Ka band stuff though into V (which has been passive only if incorporated in ESAs so far).

The chipset machines are not too difficult to acquire, you just need partnership with developed country that produces them....and more importantly the underlying RnD science and engg people to develop the process and application regarding them.

Being part of NATO has networked many things for TR military industrial complex for the appropriate machines and hardware regarding these years ago.

Turkey also has good relations with both Japan and South Korea.

==============

Just quick search got me these interesting leads that shows evidence TR is gestating and developing capacity here:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/nanotam

Seda Kizir's research works | Bilkent University, Ankara and other places

Seda Kizir's 15 research works with 147 citations and 2,600 reads, including: One-Pot Synthesis of Hybrid Conjugated Oligomer-Ag Nanoparticles

www.researchgate.net

 

[neosinan]

Which RF range (for the AESA radar) and nm process range are you talking about for GaN transistors + IC et al.?

Let us establish those, then we can get to the nm range machines are available to Turkey (past and present).

It is nowhere near what large production commercial processors (fully silicon based) achieve.

The RF power density (and thus thermal consideration) of GaN is whole reason it need not get to those scales of say <14nm for IC chipset.

In fact nowhere close, I believe GaN IC's are in the 100nm area right now....maybe pushing to 80 these days....thermal considerations become far bigger criteria slowing this progress down.

This is anyway threshold stuff to push well past X, Ku K and Ka band stuff though into V (which has been passive only if incorporated in ESAs so far).

The chipset machines are not too difficult to acquire, you just need partnership with developed country that produces them....and more importantly the underlying RnD science and engg people to develop the process and application regarding them.

Being part of NATO has networked many things for TR military industrial complex for the appropriate machines and hardware regarding these years ago.

Turkey also has good relations with both Japan and South Korea.

==============

Just quick search got me these interesting leads that shows evidence TR is gestating and developing capacity here:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/nanotam

Seda Kizir's research works | Bilkent University, Ankara and other places

Seda Kizir's 15 research works with 147 citations and 2,600 reads, including: One-Pot Synthesis of Hybrid Conjugated Oligomer-Ag Nanoparticles

www.researchgate.net

The guy leading Turkish GaN research and production

Ekmel Ozbay

Professor, Bilkent University, Ankara, TURKEY - 33.061 tarafından alıntılandı - Nanophotonics - Metamaterials - Plasmonics - Photonics Crystals - GaN/AlGaN Devices and MOCVD growth

scholar.google.com.tr

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjvhqul__r0AhWGSvEDHQqAARwQFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftr.linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Fab-mikronano&usg=AOvVaw0gfYrl4G7n6NmuFT1JHKPK

 

[Nilgiri]

List of semiconductor fabrication plants - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is list of foundry by nations , we have 4 ,which manufacturers our defence and few civilian electronics .

Dude its wiki man. This list is quite incomplete.

I have literally been to a established top notch OEM (but under the radar so to speak) company's facility a number of times....west of Toronto.

They make Canada proud.... but even within Canada, few know about them...have to be in science + engg to know about it generally.

That facility that has long established name in aerospace (esp satellite) transistors and related IC.

Foundries, chipset assembly, larger AT you name it....done inhouse. They have even moved onto some satellites of small specific capability (that ISRO PSLV launched for them some years back iirc).

Machines they acquire and update with time. It is personnel and expertise that is key....where you have developed them and concentrate and network them and fund them, they will do the rest (capital machinery acquisition and process flow) as best they can.

As you exit the facility they have plaque commemorating all the huge space satellite projects they have been involved in (including India INSAT originally btw).

They are closely involved in JWST (soon to launch) for example.

It is not on this wiki list.

They don't work in the TSMC/Samsung/Intel/AMD threshold for mass-chipsets as you can imagine.

But what they do, they are extremely reliable and well known for.

There is no reason any industrially capable (old or new) country cannot establish with enough focus... such things over time.