TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Radonsider]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592073391783424001

Any ideas?

Let's see if it's TF-X, Indonesia wants to "perfect" KF-21 (they will get the 4.5+ version) as it doesn't have stealth functions right now, maybe they would want to get this technology by being a partner in TF-X and also getting their wanted twin engine heavy fighter for their AF

 

[Seoraksan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592073391783424001

Any ideas?

Let's see if it's TF-X, Indonesia wants to "perfect" KF-21 (they will get the 4.5+ version) as it doesn't have stealth functions right now, maybe they would want to get this technology by being a partner in TF-X and also getting their wanted twin engine heavy fighter for their AF

Their high end twin engine fighter aircraft will be Boeing F-15EX. As a matter of fact, Demir & TAI claimed that the initial block of TF-X would be a 4.5 gen combat aircraft. That doesn't sound like TF-X will be a full-blown stealth aircraft from get-go. However, I understand that Turkey desperately needs a financial partner to complete the project. Interesting to see that Turkish have so much faith in the company has not successfully delievered a single turbo engine-powered & manned indigenous fighter aircraft.

 

[Agha Sher]

Their high end twin engine fighter aircraft will be Boeing F-15EX. As a matter of fact, Demir & TAI claimed that the initial block of TF-X would be a 4.5 gen combat aircraft. That doesn't sound like TF-X will be a full-blown stealth aircraft from get-go. However, I understand that Turkey desperately needs a financial partner to complete the project. Interesting to see that Turkish have so much faith in the company has not successfully delievered a single turbo engine-powered & manned indigenous fighter aircraft.

TF-X will be fully stealth from the get-go. Incremental improvements to stealth are expected tho. The reason for the 4.5 gen statement is primarily related to the engines. TF-X initially will have too weak engines for super cruise.

 

[Seoraksan]

TF-X will be fully stealth from the get-go. Incremental improvements to stealth are expected tho. The reason for the 4.5 gen statement is primarily related to the engines. TF-X initially will have too weak engines for super cruise.

Your claim is absurd. TF-X Block I will be equipped with two General Electric F110 engines. If TAI fails to achieve a supercruise capability with these powerful engines then that means the company is utterly incompetent. However, I believe TAI has consistently claimed that TF-X will have a supercruise capability.

 

[Radonsider]

Your claim is absurd. TF-X Block I will be equipped with two General Electric F110 engines. If TAI fails to achieve a supercruise capability with these power engines then that means the company is utterly incompetent. However, I believe TAI has consistently claimed that TF-X will have a supercruise capability.

Umm, do we really consider supercruise or engine as a factor for 5th gen? Are we claiming that J-20 and F-35 are not 5th gen?

Please...

 

[Seoraksan]

Umm, do we really consider supercruise or engine as a factor for 5th gen? Are we claiming that J-20 and F-35 are not 5th gen?

Please...

Umm...I am not the one who claims the initial block of TF-X won't be considered by own manufacturer as a 5th gen combat aircraft because of supercruise capability. @Agha_Sher is.

Don't clutch at a straw here, please.

 

[Radonsider]

Umm...I am not the one who claims TF-X won't be considered by own manufacturer as a 5th gen combat aircraft because of supercruise capability. @Agha_Sher is.

Don't clutch a straw here, please.

Does it seem like I am trying to dodge or clutch the discussion, I think not...

Actually it might be you right?

 

[Agha Sher]

Your claim is absurd. TF-X Block I will be equipped with two General Electric F110 engines. If TAI fails to achieve a supercruise capability with these powerful engines then that means the company is utterly incompetent. However, I believe TAI has consistently claimed that TF-X will have a supercruise capability.

I think you are confusing the F110 for being an engine it is not. One of the key criteria for 5th gen is supercruise which is defined as follows.

"For an aircraft to be deemed capable of true supercruise, it must be able to carry a normal load for an extended distance without diving or using an afterburner. Planes marketed as featuring supercruise usually have the ability to carry a combat load at low to medium altitudes".

There is no plane powered by the F110 capable of doing this.

 

[Seoraksan]

I think you are confusing the F110 for being an engine it is not. One of the key criteria for 5th gen is supercruise which is defined as follows.

"For an aircraft to be deemed capable of true supercruise, it must be able to carry a normal load for an extended distance without diving or using an afterburner. Planes marketed as featuring supercruise usually have the ability to carry a combat load at low to medium altitudes".

There is no plane powered by the F110 capable of doing this.

I think you are commenting on the subject that you are not familar with. As @Radonsider mentioned, don't you consider F-35 as a 5th gen fighter aircraft? F-35 isn't a 'true supercruising' aircraft even though the fighter jet is equppied with more powerful F135. Supercruising is not an essential feature of 5th gen combat aircraft.

Even then, supercruising isn't about the engine being 'too weak'. It is about design. Gripen E/F has reportedly achieved supercrusing with F414 and Rafale did too with twin-engine configuration of M88. Both engines have lower dry & max. thrust than F110 and there was no aircraft equipped with F414 could do a supercruising before Gripen E/F.

 

[TheInsider]

I think you are commenting on the subject that you are not familar with. As @Radonsider mentioned, don't you consider F-35 as a 5th gen fighter aircraft? F-35 isn't a 'true supercruising' aircraft even though the fighter jet is equppied with more powerful F135. Supercruising is not an essential feature of 5th gen combat aircraft.

Even then, supercruising isn't about the engine being 'too weak'. It is about design. Gripen E/F has reportedly achieved supercrusing with F414 and Rafale did too with twin-engine configuration of M88. Both engines have lower dry & max. thrust than F110 and there was no aircraft equipped with F414 could do a supercruising before Gripen E/F.

F-110 is neither stealth(important) nor has the supercruise(not a deal breaker) ability. It doesn't have the required thermal management or RCS reduction of an engine required for the 5th generation. Without an engine that satisfies the thermal and RCS needs of the 5th generation, you can't achieve perfect stealth. There are some workarounds for this problem like burying engines between tail horizontal/vertical stabilizers like the Kızılelma but even then there will be increased RCS from a certain tight angle.

 

[Seoraksan]

F-110 is neither stealth(important) nor has the supercruise(not a deal breaker) ability. It doesn't have the required thermal management or RCS reduction of an engine required for the 5th generation. Without an engine that satisfies the thermal and RCS needs of the 5th generation, you can't achieve perfect stealth. There are some workarounds for this problem like burying engines between tail horizontal/vertical stabilizers like the Kızılelma but even then there will be increased RCS from a certain tight angle.

Do you have any source that how much the aircraft RCS in rear could be achieved with F110? What value of aircraft RCS in rear qualifies a combat aircraft as a 5th gen combat aircraft? If this is the only issue and TF-X could achieve alleged overall RCS with F110 (especially the frontal RCS which is almost nothing to do with the engine and is probably the most useful factor in BVR combat), then there is no reason to not to call it a 5th gen fighter jet.

 

[Yasar_TR]

First of all one has to define supercruise.
Supercruise for a jet fighter is being able to travel at over the speed of sound for a sustained amount of time without using afterburners. But US defines it as minimum at 1.5 times the speed of sound irrespective of altitude. In tests f22 has done over 1.8 Mach. Typhoon can do around Mach 1.5. Russians claim that Su-57 can do close to 1.8 Mach.
There aren’t many planes that can do a sustained supersonic flight at sea level even with afterburners. (Tornado was specifically designed to fly at supersonic speeds but with afterburners)
A good airframe is the key in achieving Mach 1+ flight without afterburners. Also you need to be flying at high altitude in rarified air.
Yes supercruise is amongst the prerequisite capabilities of a 5th generation plane. But just because a plane can’t manage supercruise would you specify it as 4th generation? I would say no.
F35 could supercruise for around 20-30minutes before it’s RAM paint is destroyed. So it is not advised to go supersonic for too long, with or without afterburners. (with afterburners it has problems with the tail end as the nozzle output temperature is too high)
Although F35 has many 5th generation traits under it’s belt, it is a bit like a good approximation of a Swiss knife. (It is “Jack of all trades. But master of none”) . It’s airframe was designed so that it could do STOL and VTOL, as well as conventional landing and take off. In addition it was built in a navalised format for carrier operations with STOBAR.
In terms of electronics and avionics and sensor fusion etc etc F35 is the best plane there is. So it is a 5th generation plane in that respect. But it can’t supercruise in the real sense of the word.
Also it is interesting to know that most US pilots will tell you that at the right altitude both f15 and f16 will travel at Mach 1+ without afterburners, depending on the weight they have.

 

[TR_123456]

Your claim is absurd. TF-X Block I will be equipped with two General Electric F110 engines. If TAI fails to achieve a supercruise capability with these powerful engines then that means the company is utterly incompetent. However, I believe TAI has consistently claimed that TF-X will have a supercruise capability.

So,you dont think the F110 engine is to weak for the TFX?
Why else would we need better performing engines?
Make any sense to you?

 

[Agha Sher]

I think you are commenting on the subject that you are not familar with. As @Radonsider mentioned, don't you consider F-35 as a 5th gen fighter aircraft? F-35 isn't a 'true supercruising' aircraft even though the fighter jet is equppied with more powerful F135. Supercruising is not an essential feature of 5th gen combat aircraft.

Even then, supercruising isn't about the engine being 'too weak'. It is about design. Gripen E/F has reportedly achieved supercrusing with F414 and Rafale did too with twin-engine configuration of M88. Both engines have lower dry & max. thrust than F110 and there was no aircraft equipped with F414 could do a supercruising before Gripen E/F.

You are very arrogant in your language. Not the ideal way to learn new things or to become a trusted source of information.

 

[Yasar_TR]

So,you dont think the F110 engine is to weak for the TFX?
Why else would we need better performing engines?
Make any sense to you?

@Seoraksan probably thinks 300 BAE Systems engineers and 5000+ TAI engineers and Akaer design bureau don’t know much about airframe design and engine thrust levels. Also may be he thinks they dont know what they are talking about, when the three US educated aircraft engine and aerospace engineers Prof Dr Ismail Demir, Prof Dr Temel Kotil and Prof Dr Mahmut Aksit make comments on the need for a higher thrust engine for TFX.

Airframe geometry and engine thrust go hand in hand to achieve supersonic flight without afterburners. Gripen E is a good example of this. With F414 engine and Akaer design input, it can fly supersonic without afterburner. The important thrust here is the dry thrust. By changing from f404 to f414, a 2000lbf difference in dry thrust allows the plane to achieve supercruise. Plus there are no stealthy surfaces on Gripen, which could play a detrimental role on the aerodynamic structure, hence hindering top speed.
TFX is going to be as big as an F22. It has stealthy surface structure which could detract from it’s speed performance. The F110-GE129 engine develops 16610lbf dry thrust. Yet F22’s F119 engine develops 26000lbf dry thrust. It is this dry thrust that allows F22 to achieve high supercruise speeds. So it is logical to expect a higher thrust level engine than F110 for the TFX if we want to achieve high supercruise speeds.

 

[MADDOG]

Hint giving time...

 

[Radonsider]

Hint giving time...

View attachment 50474 View attachment 50475 View attachment 50476

it's assembled?

Also for everyone, I am still waiting for a friend of mine to be free to "tour" TAI

 

[TR_123456]

it's assembled?

Also for everyone, I am still waiting for a friend of mine to be free to "tour" TAI

Pictures or a video if possible(allowed).

 

[MADDOG]

it's assembled?

Also for everyone, I am still waiting for a friend of mine to be free to "tour" TAI

Well... no :/ It's regarding her design. Narrowed the pool down for y'all.

 

[MADDOG]

Pictures or a video if possible(allowed).

Well... no lol