TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Huelague]

We will get the engine from US of course, but not to sale it to Pakistan. As we get the engine for our own T129.

 

[dBSPL]

While, lets say, these aircrafts are in production for the air force, what past bond of trust makes us think that the US will continue to provide these engines when the need arises to hot-contact in Greece, the western-backed structure in south Cyprus or, in a much more extreme example, in Armenia, or even, in a much more grave example, when a complete sweep operation is required against the terrorist organization in our southeast?

Technically, as long as you are dependent on the US, you cannot use the systems you have against US interests. You can throw away license agreements, you can act outside the international system. But that doesn't change the meaning of anything: You are equally constrained in your ability to act outside US interests as you are in your ability to export military strategic exports that are not in US interests. To emphasize one and completely ignore the other is pure Atlanticist thinking. Don't sell to anyone, keep buying from me, and if you need to use it, then we'll talk.

Reducing security dependency is first and foremost a question of survival. Some 20 years ago, the EU region combined was about twice the size of the US economy. When the time came, the US moved a few stones in the security paradigm of regional geopolitics and pulled the EU's strings wherever it wanted. This is actually the most exemplary event in the political history of the last century.

 

[Zafer]

On the fact that China can do what ever it wants with Pakistan. Remember that we’re talking about the Chinese. Their eagerness to copy, steal, and learn foreign critical tech is well known, they’re not even hiding it. Will be a good opportunity for them if they can get their hands on Kaan for sure.

China is ahead of Türkiye in every field of technology as of now. There are a few fields that we have better products in.

 

[Saithan]

The world is on the eve of significant changes. Note August 22nd. The flare will be fired there. The world financial system, especially dollarization, may experience significant shock waves in the coming period. Forget linear growth projections and world economic forecasts for the 2050-2070s. The road is full of pitfalls and obstacles, and very few of those supposedly promising countries will make it to the finish line as predicted.

You need those African countries that you consider unimportant, where you have an officer stage a coup every 10 years on a Sunday morning. Because without that country, you will not have fuel rods for your power plants, your industry will not have the advantage of raw materials, and you will not keep their gold reserves in your own vault. You need it, you have to ensure it through cooperation, even if it cannot happen in a system of exploitation. TR is not a fully developed economy. But if the goal is to reach that finish line, we have to see which way the world is evolving. Economy, energy and food security, national security in the context of military capabilities... You can look at it from many different perspectives, you can't get everything by only fighting.

Regarding the KAAN project, I am not against opening this project to Azerbaijan and Pakistan. In fact, I am in favor of 'absolutely and positively' including Indonesia and secondarily Malaysia in this project in some way, through significant ToT agreements if necessary. We can also add some emerging economies of south/east Asia and the Latin region. And as far as I can see, the KAAN program (I'm talking about the whole concept, not just the aircraft itself) is on its way to becoming a euro-asian funded project. A security bond is the most lasting way to build a bond of trust. Sometimes it will not be enough to fight for yourself, you must also be able to liberate your friend.

TLDR, issues need to be approached holistically. Turkiye's indigenization efforts in aerospace and creating whole brand new independent*(as much as it can) industry are not the only necessary need to be done. There are issues such as energy, food security, macroeconomic stability. And even reaching up to the 'balance of terror' (you know what I mean) under the heading of Defense. There are some ways to accelerate these steps in a coordinated way. Or you can try to tackle them one by one with your limited resources and capacity: and all alone, ignoring the fact that you are blocked at every turn by those with whom you are formally allied.

While I understand your point quite well. I and many others still don't think including Pakistan into the project is necessary at this moment. Let's just say Pakistan can join in 2040.

Why do we need to include Pakistan now and not later. The very move to include Pakistan into the project now is the same as giving the senate reasons and excuses to postpone the sale of F110.

Do you really think that the US senate won't use any sand grain of excuse to hinder and prevent the sale of those engines ? They're not rational and like so many others pointed out Pakistan already has JF17 and a supplier to those jets. But where do we get our jets ?

Pakistan as many has pointed out area country dependent of China, UAE, KSA their economy hasn't developed for a long time @Nilgiri can tell you.

I could keep on going and you could probably as well.

We have to be smart about some of these decisions and stupidity is unfortunately what we seem to be having all day long.

well I for one still consider Hürjet more important than Kaan, so I hope we get at least 80-100 of them and we keep this project to ourselves.

 

[Ryder]

The claim that Pakistan will leak KAAN to China is based on what fact ?

Bro the country is so corrupt that isis even bragged about how they can get nukes from Pakistan.

Because thats how easy it is to bribe them because corruption there is rife from top to bottom.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Some 20 years ago, the EU region combined was about twice the size of the US economy. When the time came, the US moved a few stones in the security paradigm of regional geopolitics and pulled the EU's strings wherever it wanted. This is actually the most exemplary event in the political history of the last century.

True. But the EU's idiocy helped a lot! For example they managed their relations with Russia and Türkiye very badly.

 

[Ryder]

It seems to me the Kaan Jet is all about making money rather than having a jet to be self sufficient.

When your country is under attack.

You cant fight with a bag of money.

 

[TR_123456]

My fear too is about likely embargo but logically US wouldn't embargo Turkiye for F110 engines. The platforms that engines are going to be integrated and country that the platforms (with US engine) are going to be used must be specified and guaranteed when obtaining permission for engine from US. In the future, if Pakistan gives a certain order for TFX for example, then embargo may be on the agenda for requested F110s, as it is the same case with LHTEC engines for Pakistan but not for Turkiye. In any way, Turkiye will continues on its course.

Remember,everything we asked in the past which we didnt have they offered(better offer) right after we developed and produced it ourselves.
They know now that if they dont give it to us they will lose in the end.
There is no ''Rocket Science'' in any sophisticated weaponsystem for us anymore.
Only delays can happen but that wont work for long as long as we finish our most important projects(all kinds of engines).
When in 2028 the first ignition of the indigenous KAAN engine is a fact,there is no more possibility of any weapons embargo on us.
Only 5 more years we will hear objections from the likes of Menemen(Menendes),after that we can say 'Hepinizin a................

Relax bro,we got this.

 

[TR_123456]

It seems to me the Kaan Jet is all about making money rather than having a jet to be self sufficient.

When your country is under attack.

You cant fight with a bag of money.

No,its not about money,its about forming a base for the future place of the country.
Look at what the US did with all its money,weapons exported to or JV's with its allies.
All of them without any real weapons industry(except UK and France) are dependent on the US.

 

[Ryder]

No,its not about money,its about forming a base for the future place of the country.
Look at what the US did with all its money,weapons exported to or JV's with its allies.
All of them without any real weapons industry(except UK and France) are dependent on the US.

Honestly Im all for cooperation with Pakistan if they get their act together to be stable and not be dependant on China.

Right now it just wont work. That country is imploding.

In some parts of Pakistan you literally have TTP and Tribal people running certain parts of the country. Some parts are lawless.

Can you imagine where you cant even impose your laws and even rules in your own country.

Not to mention the economy and corruption then you have terrorism and extremism that is plaguing Pakistan.

If Pakistan is actually getting the Kaan cooperation they better give us something in return like Nukes and Icbms. Also their fertile lands.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Using that logic , Turkey shouldn't trust anyone including Azerbaijan . What would guaranty that Azerbaijan won’t leak KAAN technology and information to Israel ? Israel friendship with Azerbaijan is deep and they sold them critical weaponry even before Turkey did .

I hope you don’t say ( brotherhood and turkic history etc ) . Just let me remind you with 2023 election beef between KK and Aliyev regarding Iran corridor .

International relation is complicated but the number 1 rule is nothing last forever

These two countries aren’t comparable. Azerbaijan isn’t on the brink of a collapse and maintained afloat by a rival country.

Anyway, like I said on the Çay Bahçesi thread, I just hope we won’t regret it.

China is ahead of Türkiye in every field of technology as of now. There are a few fields that we have better products in.

US is ahead of us in every field, let’s give them the blueprints of our Kaan and god knows what other weapons. After all, what could they do with it ?

 

[TR_123456]

Bro the country is so corrupt that isis even bragged about how they can get nukes from Pakistan.

Because thats how easy it is to bribe them because corruption there is rife from top to bottom.

Post 9234,im guessing you missed it?

 

[TR_123456]

Honestly Im all for cooperation with Pakistan if they get their act together to be stable and not be dependant on China.

Right now it just wont work. That country is imploding.

In some parts of Pakistan you literally have TTP and Tribal people running certain parts of the country. Some parts are lawless.

Can you imagine where you cant even impose your laws and even rules in your own country.

Not to mention the economy and corruption then you have terrorism and extremism that is plaguing Pakistan.

If Pakistan is actually getting the Kaan cooperation they better give us something in return like Nukes and Icbms. Also their fertile lands.

If Pakistan ''implodes'' as you put it then there is no deal(automatic cancellation) but if Pakistan makes it it will come out stronger.
Its a win win for us.
Btw,you cant just demand things,it will come natural in such a relationship.

 

[Palaman]

They have neither the money nor the technology, their international relations are bad, they have embargoes with the west, their backs to the west, what is our aim to include them in the project when they do us more harm than good?

I'm sorry, but the same goes for Azerbaijan, no matter how many bro countries there are, they have nothing to contribute to the project.

 

[Sanchez]

Pakistan is corrupt, also doesn't have money to spend and there have been allegations for years at this point that ISI is too close to the Chinese. How this plays out will depend on where Turkey situates itself in the next 30 years. Saudi angle, maybe..

While, lets say, these aircrafts are in production for the air force, what past bond of trust makes us think that the US will continue to provide these engines when the need arises to hot-contact in Greece, the western-backed structure in south Cyprus or, in a much more extreme example, in Armenia, or even, in a much more grave example, when a complete sweep operation is required against the terrorist organization in our southeast?

Technically, as long as you are dependent on the US, you cannot use the systems you have against US interests. You can throw away license agreements, you can act outside the international system. But that doesn't change the meaning of anything: You are equally constrained in your ability to act outside US interests as you are in your ability to export military strategic exports that are not in US interests. To emphasize one and completely ignore the other is pure Atlanticist thinking. Don't sell to anyone, keep buying from me, and if you need to use it, then we'll talk.

Reducing security dependency is first and foremost a question of survival. Some 20 years ago, the EU region combined was about twice the size of the US economy. When the time came, the US moved a few stones in the security paradigm of regional geopolitics and pulled the EU's strings wherever it wanted. This is actually the most exemplary event in the political history of the last century.

I'm thinking everyone is aware of your comment's meaning at this point. But, two points. Having something already and having to ask for permission to get something are two very different things. F-16s also use F110s, we use them however we like. US did threaten us with cutting the supply but had to walk that back once we started gathering spares from all over the world. In the same light, had Turkey received its first batch of F-35s, US wouldn't be able to cut Turkey off the program as quickly. That was a major defeat for us. When you need the permission in the first place your hands are tied from the beginning. You have lots more leeways to explore when you have the thing in your hands.

There are no substitutes to F110s for Kaan. Even F110s are not enough and will not be enough to unlock the airframe's full potential. No one else in the world makes engines like we need and we have to do it ourselves. Unlike Altay, we can't afford a 15-18 year delay on Kaan. We have thousands of tanks. We don't have that number of high performance aircraft, in a region where everyone rearms like crazy and TurAF is now closer to IRIAF on the spectrum on AA capability rather than HAF or Egypt. We need the prototype phase of the aircraft to go smoothly, and also need the TF35000 be ready in time. None of this is possible unless US plays ball. Our schedule for Kaan goes away the moment US hesitates to supply the F110 sets for Kaan. This is just the reality.

I don't have any option other but to be optimistic. Otherwise, this a brewing catastrophe, waiting to blow up on our faces.

 

[Fighter_35]

Anyone thinks that including Pakistan in this project is a success or a good thing , I must say that he is just delusional, I would say a bad thing but this is a forum and I should not say.
Pakistan is a failed state and it is under china's rule. It can not act freely. It will do what china says since they owe china a huge amount of money.
Additionally, they have nothing to add to this project.
Moreover, we will be risking our engine supply!!

If SSB signs it and we get engine blockage , all managers deciding this should be charged. They can not be so much blind!! They should be kept responsible

 

[Cabatli_TR]

But would they act logically, or would they take the chance to cripple the project by blocking the sale of engines altogether? With one embargo on engines they can set us years back on production and testing, and not just on Kaan but also on Hürjet if they choose to do so. We are giving them an ace to keep in their sleeve so that they can hold it over our heads.

Indeed they can do but when they want to impose an embargo on F110, you know, they don't need any reason. They can put forward any reason such as our presence in "Cyprus"/Libya, our operations in Syria, our "destabilizing role" in Eastern Med, problems with Greece in Aegean, re-heating of S400s, our trade with Russia..etc. If their intention is not to qpprove engines, Pakistan will only have +1 more reason to put forward but general conjuncture signals that US wants to avoid conflict route with Turkiye at present so they want to keep CATSAA and S400 off agenda, bring up joint cooperation mechanisms and try to direct all their concentration to Russia. They are losing Gulf Arabs, bleeding some regions in Africa. The biggest challenge is still rising in Far East and they can't prevent emerging challenges in any geographies at present so I do not think that Pakistan's partnership for Kaan will reverse this developing situation with Turkiye but it is true that we will always be at risk for one reason or another as long as we depend on US for Engine. They need us more than ever so I see embargo less likely today but the situation may change and their reaction may be totally different tomorrow. The reason for existence of Tf35K is to remove this dependency forever and prepare for all possibilities of tomorrow.

 

[Heartbang]

and also need the TF35000 be ready in time. None of this is possible unless US plays ball.

I fail to see how the US can tamper with the development process of the TF-35K. They already tried what they possibly could do with the development of the TF-6K, and they managed to delay the progress for... 6 months.

 

[uçuyorum]

I'm against selling to whomever just in order to say we were able to export it. Exporting something to pakistan or partnering with them won't impress anyone.

 

[Heartbang]

general conjuncture signals that US wants to avoid conflict route with Turkiye at present so they want to keep CATSAA and S400 off agenda, bring up joint cooperation mechanisms and try to direct all their concentration to Russia. They are losing Gulf Arabs, bleeding some regions in Africa.

We should conduct a conclusive op into Syria while the winds are this favorable. I know its off-topic but I want this to be known.