TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Dosirak]

I don't think you will hear that. But if they ever announce the completion of it, that would probably be in this year if they don't face major problems during CDR phase

TAI did announce the completion of CDR of Hurjet since it was a big deal as it meant the initial product baseline of Hurjet had been established. I expect the same with KAAN.

On schedule, if I remember correctly, CDR of KAAN should be concluded by the end of this year (2024).

Between KAAN and AMCA, I wonder which team delievers production aircrafts to own airforce & achieve IOC & FOC. KAAN has a prototype, yet its CDR activity is not completed. AMCA's CDR was concluded last year, but the project only recently received an approval for prototype development in March, 2024.

 

[Rodeo]

TAI did announce the completion of CDR of Hurjet since it was a big deal as it meant the initial product baseline of Hurjet had been established. I expect the same with KAAN.

On schedule, if I remember correctly, CDR of KAAN should be concluded by the end of this year (2024).

Between KAAN and AMCA, I wonder which team delievers production aircrafts to own airforce & achieve IOC & FOC. KAAN has a prototype, yet its CDR activity is not completed. AMCA's CDR was concluded last year, but the project only recently received an approval for prototype development in March, 2024.

TAI aims to deliver 20 IOC KAAN in 2028 whereas AMCA will make its FF in the same year(or in 2027, i'm not totally sure).

There are two more KAAN in production right now, one is expected to roll out this year. Those will be the real prototypes. The one that flew was a heavily modified GTU.

I don't see how HAL can deliver AMCA before KAAN(assuming there's no issue with engine supply from the US).

 

[Radonsider]

TAI did announce the completion of CDR of Hurjet since it was a big deal as it meant the initial product baseline of Hurjet had been established. I expect the same with KAAN.

On schedule, if I remember correctly, CDR of KAAN should be concluded by the end of this year (2024).

Between KAAN and AMCA, I wonder which team delievers production aircrafts to own airforce & achieve IOC & FOC. KAAN has a prototype, yet its CDR activity is not completed. AMCA's CDR was concluded last year, but the project only recently received an approval for prototype development in March, 2024.

However they didnt announce PDR of Kaan, and iirc CDR of Hürjet was known because of some guys on LinkedIn

 

[Khagan1923]

TAI did announce the completion of CDR of Hurjet since it was a big deal as it meant the initial product baseline of Hurjet had been established. I expect the same with KAAN.

On schedule, if I remember correctly, CDR of KAAN should be concluded by the end of this year (2024).

Between KAAN and AMCA, I wonder which team delievers production aircrafts to own airforce & achieve IOC & FOC. KAAN has a prototype, yet its CDR activity is not completed. AMCA's CDR was concluded last year, but the project only recently received an approval for prototype development in March, 2024.

According to Indian sources

AMCA first flight end of 2028
Production start of serial production aircraft 2034


This is taking into account no delays btw. Which we know in India is a given due to certain problems in their industry I won't touch upon here.

By 2034 TAI will have delivered 6*24=144 Aircraft to the Turkish Air Force. Even if we take possible and likely delays into account TAI will most likely deliver around 70-100 Kaan to the Turkish Air Force by that time and most likely even have delivered first Aircrafts to select "partners". That is also if the rate of production stays at 2 aircraft per month. Good possibility it will ramp up if large export orders come in from certain gulf countries, Azerbaijan and Pakistan which could finance the expanding of production lines over the years.


India is still facing delays on Tejas MK1A as well as TEDBF which I believe was supposed to roll out last year? Yet is nowhere to be seen yet. And there is Tejas MK2 btw though I don't know the current situation on that project. Possible I switched up MK2 and TEDBF. Nevertheless.

With the quickly emerging of the J-31/35 and a possible export of it to Pakistan post 2028, when AMCA is supposed to make its first flight, India's priorities will most likely change quickly. How likely is the push for F-35s by India in this scenario to be able to keep up with the threats arising by a ever largening J-20 Fleet, a PLAN deploying 5th gen fighters on its Aircraft carriers and Pakistan buying the J-31/35? And how much would that disrupt the current projects?

We will see what the future brings, but TAI will easily win this race that much I'm certain, which aircraft is better is another whole topic you can discuss for years on here. What I can say though is that one right now exists and has undertaken its first flight while one is still a render.

 

[Nilgiri]

With the quickly emerging of the J-31/35 and a possible export of it to Pakistan post 2028

I suppose if the IMF provides a number of additional loans to the current bailout. But it would be off topic to get into where the likelihood of that all is given deep entrenched crucial numbers that have stagnated in Pakistan for the last 10, 20 years or even longer....and why they are unlikely to change and reform these deep down to develop actual forex and market cap muster that pays the bills.

China is staying away from all of that basic wherewithal for a reason, in fact they have made it worse. There is a reason the IMF is approached for this liquidity (for the metastasized revenue deficit), hat in hand.... no one else.

The earlier forms of the revenue deficit problem meant continued staring at ballistic missile tech given by the Chinese (and then outsourced to the North Koreans)....with total inability to convert them into even a basic tier 1 space launcher (given the quality and process control needed here). Something that hasn't held back Iran for example.

According to Indian sources

AMCA first flight end of 2028
Production start of serial production aircraft 2034


This is taking into account no delays btw. Which we know in India is a given due to certain problems in their industry I won't touch upon here.

By 2034 TAI will have delivered 6*24=144 Aircraft to the Turkish Air Force. Even if we take possible and likely delays into account TAI will most likely deliver around 70-100 Kaan to the Turkish Air Force by that time and most likely even have delivered first Aircrafts to select "partners". That is also if the rate of production stays at 2 aircraft per month. Good possibility it will ramp up if large export orders come in from certain gulf countries, Azerbaijan and Pakistan which could finance the expanding of production lines over the years.


India is still facing delays on Tejas MK1A as well as TEDBF which I believe was supposed to roll out last year? Yet is nowhere to be seen yet. And there is Tejas MK2 btw though I don't know the current situation on that project. Possible I switched up MK2 and TEDBF. Nevertheless.

Just like the Turks shouldn't be underestimated, India shouldn't be either.

A lot of things are coming together now compared to before.

This means progression from the nuclear, missiles and space domain successes (among others) to more sectors including aviation....both defence and civilian.

I actually have spreadsheet of the equity trajectories in this sector. It is imperative that India gets its 4.5 trillion USD market cap doubled as soon as possible this decade given what this means in wherewithal regarding further capital and human resource arrangement.

While with a population 1/6th ours, a 3 billion IMF bailout is of intense crucial nature to Pakistan for a full year and it now seeks another 6 billion from the IMF (with China again saying a firm no) with more hats in hand......for India we simply must get the monthly FDI+FPI inflow (hard foreign investment) well past 12 billion a month ASAP....and then well into the double digit range past that.

These will all have impact on strategic projects like AMCA long term. Such things can only grow if you are big enough, not reliant on bailouts.

 

[Dosirak]

TAI aims to deliver 20 IOC KAAN in 2028 whereas AMCA will make its FF in the same year(or in 2027, i'm not totally sure).

There are two more KAAN in production right now, one is expected to roll out this year. Those will be the real prototypes. The one that flew was a heavily modified GTU.

I don't see how HAL can deliver AMCA before KAAN(assuming there's no issue with engine supply from the US).

If you could recall the schedule of TF-X that Turkish Airforce presented during Anatolian Eagle 2021, the actual prototype of TF-X KAAN which should come after the conclusion of CDR is expected to make a maiden flight in late 2026 and IOC & FOC are expected to be declared sometime in 2030s. It seems to me that Turkish Airforce works with realistic schedule.

Meanwhile, India's AMCA team has concluded CDR and is about to enter production of AMCA prototypes and expects to conduct a maiden flight of AMCA in 2027~2028.

In terms of real prototypes that are manufactured after the initial product baseline is set, TF-X is probably like a year or a year and a half ahead over AMCA, but practically both projects are more or less are in the same position.

It will be interesting to watch both projects evolve over time.

 

[Dosirak]

However they didnt announce PDR of Kaan, and iirc CDR of Hürjet was known because of some guys on LinkedIn

I remember Mr. Demir discussed how well PDR activities of TF-X project were carried out around the time CDR of Hurjet was concluded. Also, If you could recall the program schedule presented by Turkish Airforce in '21, almost every milestone was noted, including SSR (System Requirements Review), PDR and CDR.

 

[Dosirak]

I came back and asked for completion of CDR, because I heard an interesting story of schism between Turkish Airforce and TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB).

TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB) have tried to persuade Turkish Airforce to accept non-full stealth, 4.5 gen combat aircraft as TF-X, at least for initial blocks of TF-X. I think it is Mr. Ismail Demir who is a vocal proponent of this idea and he has spoken about an initial block of TF-X (Block 0~Block I) being a 4.5 gen combat aircraft. Defence Turkey Magazine which is one of more credible source of Turkish Defence reported the same thing in the past.

What I have heard so far, Turkish Airforce staunchly refused to accept the proposal from TAI/SSB and demanded TAI to produce a full-stealth fighter jet. If you check the presentation by Turkish Airforce, operational requirements of TF-X are a fighter with a LO (low observable) with RCS value of -10 to -20 (dBsm) as TA put it.

The most interesting point is, perhaps, was that internal payload is only expected to be up to 1000lbs (about 500kg)

Remind you folks, a smaller aircraft, AMCA is expected to have about 1,500kg (3,300lbs) of internal payload (I think this figure is too ambitious, but anyway) and I believe the relaitvely small internal playlod is a sign of compromise between Turkish Airforce and TAI/SSB.

I honestly enjoy watching all 3 recent combat aircraft projects, KF-X, AMCA and TF-X take different paths and evolve over time.

 

[Dosirak]

I suppose if the IMF provides a number of additional loans to the current bailout. But it would be off topic to get into where the likelihood of that all is given deep entrenched crucial numbers that have stagnated in Pakistan for the last 10, 20 years or even longer....and why they are unlikely to change and reform these deep down to develop actual forex and market cap muster that pays the bills.

China is staying away from all of that basic wherewithal for a reason, in fact they have made it worse. There is a reason the IMF is approached for this liquidity (for the metastasized revenue deficit), hat in hand.... no one else.

The earlier forms of the revenue deficit problem meant continued staring at ballistic missile tech given by the Chinese (and then outsourced to the North Koreans)....with total inability to convert them into even a basic tier 1 space launcher (given the quality and process control needed here). Something that hasn't held back Iran for example.




Just like the Turks shouldn't be underestimated, India shouldn't be either.

A lot of things are coming together now compared to before.

This means progression from the nuclear, missiles and space domain successes (among others) to more sectors including aviation....both defence and civilian.

I actually have spreadsheet of the equity trajectories in this sector. It is imperative that India gets its 4.5 trillion USD market cap doubled as soon as possible this decade given what this means in wherewithal regarding further capital and human resource arrangement.

While with a population 1/6th ours, a 3 billion IMF bailout is of intense crucial nature to Pakistan for a full year and it now seeks another 6 billion from the IMF (with China again saying a firm no) with more hats in hand......for India we simply must get the monthly FDI+FPI inflow (hard foreign investment) well past 12 billion a month ASAP....and then well into the double digit range past that.

These will all have impact on strategic projects like AMCA long term. Such things can only grow if you are big enough, not reliant on bailouts.

I don't think India's problem is imperative population & economic growth to sustain any national aircraft project, but a copious amount of delay due to external & internal factors including the budget allocation issue as Indian military needs a lot of modernisation right now to properly protect herself.

However, I believe the most damning issue is, like TF-X, schism & disagreement between Indian Airforce and DRDO & HAL. For instance, Girish S Deodhare, Programme Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) claimed back in 2021 that AMCA would roll out in 2024 and conduct a maiden flight in 2025 even though IAF (Indian Airforce) reportedly said that the schedule is very 'tight'.

Fast foward to 2024, yes CDR of AMCA is completed in 2023, but only recently in March, 2024 AMCA was approved to proceed to the prototpye stage. Now it is generally expected AMCA to make a maiden flight in 2027~2028. Who knows AMCA would suffer more delay.

At least, TF-X is on schedule that was presented by Turkish Airforce back in 2021...so far.

 

[Baryshx]

TAI did announce the completion of CDR of Hurjet since it was a big deal as it meant the initial product baseline of Hurjet had been established. I expect the same with KAAN.

On schedule, if I remember correctly, CDR of KAAN should be concluded by the end of this year (2024).

Between KAAN and AMCA, I wonder which team delievers production aircrafts to own airforce & achieve IOC & FOC. KAAN has a prototype, yet its CDR activity is not completed. AMCA's CDR was concluded last year, but the project only recently received an approval for prototype development in March, 2024.

I think the AMCA prototype development approval was given just after Kaan's first flight because of the intense pressure. Kaan's first flight caused outrage and resentment among the Indians. They felt they had to do something considering this and the elections.

They don't know why things are going so fast in Kaan. They should follow our aircraft purchase problems and Temel Kotil's statements.

 

[uçuyorum]

I came back and asked for completion of CDR, because I heard an interesting story of schism between Turkish Airforce and TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB).

TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB) have tried to persuade Turkish Airforce to accept non-full stealth, 4.5 gen combat aircraft as TF-X, at least for initial blocks of TF-X. I think it is Mr. Ismail Demir who is a vocal proponent of this idea and he has spoken about an initial block of TF-X (Block 0~Block I) being a 4.5 gen combat aircraft. Defence Turkey Magazine which is one of more credible source of Turkish Defence reported the same thing in the past.

What I have heard so far, Turkish Airforce staunchly refused to accept the proposal from TAI/SSB and demanded TAI to produce a full-stealth fighter jet. If you check the presentation by Turkish Airforce, operational requirements of TF-X are a fighter with a LO (low observable) with RCS value of -10 to -20 (dBsm) as TA put it.

The most interesting point is, perhaps, was that internal payload is only expected to be up to 1000lbs (about 500kg)

Remind you folks, a smaller aircraft, AMCA is expected to have about 1,500kg (3,300lbs) of internal payload (I think this figure is too ambitious, but anyway) and I believe the relaitvely small internal playlod is a sign of compromise between Turkish Airforce and TAI/SSB.

I honestly enjoy watching all 3 recent combat aircraft projects, KF-X, AMCA and TF-X take different paths and evolve over time.

KAAN has been altered significantly to be able to fit SOM-J. This gives it a huge internal volume. I'm pretty sure it can fit multiple HGK83 or even HGK84 if hardpoint. allows for that weight. Though we haven't seen the final version of the internal bay yet.

 

[Dosirak]

KAAN has been altered significantly to be able to fit SOM-J.

Is this statement factual with any evidence or what you think it has happened. I have you remind you, even though Turkish Airforce's operational requirements were rather ambitious, even the presentation indicated that they didn't expect TF-X to carry SOM-J internally. Aircraft design is not easily alterted because of aerodynamics and so on.

 

[Afif]

I came back and asked for completion of CDR, because I heard an interesting story of schism between Turkish Airforce and TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB).

TAI/Defence Industry Agency of Turkey (SSB) have tried to persuade Turkish Airforce to accept non-full stealth, 4.5 gen combat aircraft as TF-X, at least for initial blocks of TF-X. I think it is Mr. Ismail Demir who is a vocal proponent of this idea and he has spoken about an initial block of TF-X (Block 0~Block I) being a 4.5 gen combat aircraft. Defence Turkey Magazine which is one of more credible source of Turkish Defence reported the same thing in the past.

What I have heard so far, Turkish Airforce staunchly refused to accept the proposal from TAI/SSB and demanded TAI to produce a full-stealth fighter jet. If you check the presentation by Turkish Airforce, operational requirements of TF-X are a fighter with a LO (low observable) with RCS value of -10 to -20 (dBsm) as TA put it.

The most interesting point is, perhaps, was that internal payload is only expected to be up to 1000lbs (about 500kg)

Remind you folks, a smaller aircraft, AMCA is expected to have about 1,500kg (3,300lbs) of internal payload (I think this figure is too ambitious, but anyway) and I believe the relaitvely small internal playlod is a sign of compromise between Turkish Airforce and TAI/SSB.

Well, no. TAI CEO explicitly stated total internal payload capacity of KAAN would be 10t, compared to 9.5t of F-22. Which seems reasonable given it's size. From that, at least 1000-1200kg would be for internal weapons. I mean it would be ludacris to assume KAAN won't be able to carry at least 4 BVR missile (in the main weapon bay) and 2 WVR missile (in side bays). That along would weight more than 800kg.

 

[Zafer]

Is this statement factual with any evidence or what you think it has happened. I have you remind you, even though Turkish Airforce's operational requirements were rather ambitious, even the presentation indicated that they didn't expect TF-X to carry SOM-J internally. Aircraft design is not easily alterted because of aerodynamics and so on.

TFX was enlarged multiple times.

 

[Dosirak]

Well, no. TAI CEO explicitly mentioned total internal payload of KAAN would be 10t, compared to 9.5t of F-22. Which seems reasonable given it's size. From that,
at least 1000-1200kg would be for internal weapons. I mean it would be ludacris to assume KAAN won't be able to carry at least 4 BVR missile (in the main weapon bay) and 2 WVR missile (in side bays). That along would weight more than 800kg.

I think either that's not what he meant or you misunderstood what he said. F-22's internal weapon payload is nowhere near 9.5t and It could carry only a couple of bombs and A2A missiles. I think what you are thinking at the moment is the figure includes internal fuel capacity.

 

[Dosirak]

TFX was enlarged multiple times.

Do you have any evidence it has happened so TF-X could accomodate more weapon internally since Turkish Airforce presented operational requirements or since SRR or since PDR? I am going with the operational requirements presented by Turkish Airforce.

 

[Baryshx]

KAAN has been altered significantly to be able to fit SOM-J. This gives it a huge internal volume. I'm pretty sure it can fit multiple HGK83 or even HGK84 if hardpoint. allows for that weight. Though we haven't seen the final version of the internal bay yet.

According to the statement and visual made on 2024 February, there are the following.

KAAN's ammunition integration will be carried out by TÜBİTAK SAGE.

SOM A, SOM B1, SOM B2, HGK 82, HGK 83, HGK 84, NEB, GÖKHAN, KGK 82, KGK 83, GÖKDOĞAN and BOZDOĞAN projects will be integrated into KAAN by TÜBİTAK SAGE.

Milli Muharip Uçağı KAAN, İlk Uçuşunu Gerçekleştirdi | TÜBİTAK | Türkiye Bilimsel ve Teknolojik Araştırma Kurumu

T.C. Sanayi ve Teknoloji Bakanlığı'nın ilgili kuruluşudur.

www.tubitak.gov.tr

 

[Afif]

I think either that's not what he meant or you misunderstood what he said. F-22's internal weapon payload is nowhere near 9.5t and It could carry only a couple of bombs and A2A missiles. I think what you are thinking at the moment is the figure includes internal fuel capacity.

I could see a pattern of a lack of general knowledge here...

Lol, read again. I said, Total internal payload capacity. Not total internal weapon capacity. That is why I also added-

From that, at least 1000-1200kg would be for internal weapons.

And F-22 carries 6x AIM-120 and 2x AIM-9.

Those alone would weigh around 1100kg. Thus for KAAN-

it would be ludacris to assume KAAN won't be able to carry at least 4 BVR missile (in the main weapon bay) and 2 WVR missile (in side bays). That along would weigh more than 800kg.

 

[Zafer]

Do you have any evidence it has happened so TF-X could accomodate more weapon internally? I am going with the operational requirements presented by Turkish Airforce.

We don't have direct evidence but its length went from 19m to 21m and wing area was also increased. TFX is meant to use Turkish made weapons and they are still in development so weapons bay requirements would be expected to change accordingly.

 

[uçuyorum]

I think people are referring to this but,

It's massive