TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Saithan]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

3 I don't want to tell this here but Turkiye is in a backdoor diplomacy process with the Chinese through Pakistan for a backup plan. If the US refuses to supply F110 Turkiye wants to secure Chinese engines at least for Pakistan but Turkiye also evaluates a doomsday scenario in which the US senate completely blocks F110 delivery to Turkiye. China also wants to export its own engines. Turkiye sees no such possibility for F404 at least for the trainer version of Hurjet.

I highly doubt that Pakistan is getting anything other than an assembly line and even that is doubtful because even structural part production and assembly of the fighter involves advanced processes. Production and assembly of JF-17 and Kaan are inherently different.

Turkiye is at a crossroads with the US in nearly everything. Either the US will come to our terms and we will support the US in the era of great power competition (albeit subtly) or the US will continue at the same route and we will take a third-way approach and support neither side and conduct critical business with all players when it is beneficial.

This is what I have been thinking could be a way around. Pakistan may have an economy that's hanging in shambles, but it's got a military that should be able to hold things together, so we're in short investing in an essembly line that could churn out KAAN's and since it's in Pakistance, who's to say that they can't work on a prototype that can use a Chinese engine. What is important here is the electronics to fit inside of such KAAN-P. What we can tell already is that doing that work in Pakistan is much better than doing it in Türkiye, as there are segregation to a certain extent.

And having an Airborn KAAN-P with a chinese engine would place US/West into a magma field. Also I am also certain that KAAN's structure/shape while good/decent isn't unique, so we're delivering a hull that can be used by Pakistan, which would save them cost, and us as well.

In a way we're contributing to keep Pakistan a bit out of China's clutches, as much as possible.

 

[boredaf]

In a way we're contributing to keep Pakistan a bit out of China's clutches, as much as possible.

How? Their army, navy and air force increasingly using Chinese products, almost all of their military imports (something like 80% last time I looked) was from China and almost half of their debt is held by China as well, and they can barely pay that to them.

How are they supposed to pay us for Kaan when they can't even pay their debts that they making to survive another year?

 

[Saithan]

How? Their army, navy and air force increasingly using Chinese products, almost all of their military imports (something like 80% last time I looked) was from China and almost half of their debt is held by China as well, and they can barely pay that to them.

How are they supposed to pay us for Kaan when they can't even pay their debts that they making to survive another year?

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

 

[boredaf]

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

TAI has already stated how many Kaan they can make, multiple times, and if they are not outright lying, why would we need Pakistan to build or assemble anything for us?

 

[Spitfire9]

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

 

[Saithan]

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

I did not mention Indonesia for a reason. Just remember who aided us during WW1 and the answer should be obvious.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

First of all you need to know that Pakistanis see Turks as their brethren. Not just because of the same religion they believe in; But due to their ancestry.
If you check out Indian history before the British, you will find that Indian lands were playing host to no less than 7-8 Turkic states, like Delhi Sultanate, Gaznevids, Mughals etc etc. When India was dominated by the Turkic states, the language of the Army = Ordu in Turkish , became Urdu. Which is the national language of Pakistan today. Urdu is heavily influenced by Turkish (ruling dynasties), Persian (due to their art etc) and Arabic (due to Islam). Today, Pakistan is among the Turkic nations organisation.

There is a strong bond between the two nations. If Turkey is going to help any country, after Azerbaijan, it is Pakistan.

KAAN will use US engines in its first blocks. There is no guarantee that US will freely supply these engines to Turkey. There needs to be a congress approval which is still pending. Until our indigenous engine becomes available, we need engines to power our first block planes and we need engines to sell to our friends that are Embargoed by US.

Without causing a political incident, having an assembly line in a friendly country could be the solution.

So that is the rationale behind the whole discussion. Whether there is any grounds to this line of thought is an open ended case. Until an official statement is made, all anybody can do is speculate.

 

[Huelague]

I did not mention Indonesia for a reason. Just remember who aided us during WW1 and the answer should be obvious.

And their are some „secrets“ more, which everyone suspected, but nobody really knows.

 

[Zoth]

Okay regarding the Pakistan conversation, i will wear my tinfoil hat and make a really big assumption.

Our close ties with Pakistan and intentions of compromising some of stuff in favor of them(like giving them Kaan production-assembly line) in this high matter, probably has to do with their nuclear technology know how and nuclear weapons.

I know, it sounds really funny but if we are secretly aiming to get our hands into nukes(if Iran gets nukes, Saudi arabia will get them too, so we also have to somehow get those toys), Pakistan may be the best choice, given their economic, demographic and more problems and plus good ties with us.

 

[boredaf]

Okay regarding the Pakistan conversation, i will wear my tinfoil hat and make a really big assumption.

Our close ties with Pakistan and intentions of compromising some of stuff in favor of them(like giving them Kaan production-assembly line) in this high matter, probably has to do with their nuclear technology know how and nuclear weapons.

I know, it sounds really funny but if we are secretly aiming to get our hands into nukes(if Iran gets nukes, Saudi arabia will get them too, so we also have to somehow get those toys), Pakistan may be the best choice, given their economic, demographic and more problems and plus good ties with us.

You can't just "secretly" get nukes. Whether you try to produce it yourself or try to get it from somewhere else, everyone and their mums will know immediately that you're trying to get nukes. North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

There is also the fact that Pakistan has access to FC-31, which is now being called J-35 I think, and they might just choose it to simplify their logistics, as they've been trying to do by replacing Western jets with Chinese ones.

 

[Huelague]

North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

Could not or want not.

 

[Spitfire9]

You can't just "secretly" get nukes. Whether you try to produce it yourself or try to get it from somewhere else, everyone and their mums will know immediately that you're trying to get nukes. North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

There is also the fact that Pakistan has access to FC-31, which is now being called J-35 I think, and they might just choose it to simplify their logistics, as they've been trying to do by replacing Western jets with Chinese ones.

From what I heard via Indian media recently, Pakistan is expected to receive Chinese 5G fighters within the next 2 years.

How does that tie in with getting KAAN in the future?

 

[boredaf]

From what I heard via Indian media recently, Pakistan is expected to receive Chinese 5G fighters within the next 2 years.

How does that tie in with getting KAAN in the future?

I wouldn't trust anything about Pakistan that comes out of India, however, this one was quite literally claimed by an air force official from Pakistan.

In my opinion, it doesn't. There are only 2 countries that operate 2 different kinds of stealth fighter on the planet, and they US and China. I doubt Pakistan is going to be the third, especially since China can just give them a loan to buy them in the first place, unlike us.

 

[Merzifonlu]

KAAN will use US engines in its first blocks. There is no guarantee that US will freely supply these engines to Turkey. There needs to be a congress approval which is still pending. Until our indigenous engine becomes available, we need engines to power our first block planes and we need engines to sell to our friends that are Embargoed by US.

If the USA does not give us GE F110E engines, I think the following will happen: The "Kaan-P" fighter jet will be put into production with China's WS-10G engine and these engines will be assembled on the fuselage in Pakistan.Then some of these aircraft will be deployed in Turkiye and their pilots will be Pakistani. Until when? Until the Kaan enters service with the our TF-36000 engine.

BTW, I think we should call this engine TF-36000 from now on. Because its thrust was officially announced as 36000 lbf.

 

[Spitfire9]

Turkish Defence Minister Yashar Guler confirmed Pakistan's participation in the MMU (TF-X) project during the Pak-Turkish Industrial Expo international forum in January 2025.

Turkey and Pakistan to establish joint aircraft factory for production of 5th generation Turkish KAAN fighters

Turkey and Pakistan have announced the establishment of a joint aircraft factory to produce fifth-generation KAAN fighters. This was reported by Army Recognition with reference to the Turkish Minister of Defence.

gagadget.com

That is a big step, isn't it? I'm surprised there is not a bigger reaction from forum members.

Is there a low probability of Pakistan involvement resulting in some kind of concrete result?

 

[dBSPL]

We have recently provided Pakistan with a lot of strategic know-how and infrastructure consultations, we are looking for ways to work together, and it is undeniable that there has been a serious rapprochement in the military bureaucracies of both sides, not just in words but in concrete terms.

Consultation services for restructuring of the Karachi shipyard, the transfer of some know-how related the Milgem project to help them design, classify and build their own frigates, systems engineering and related works support to the Khalid (Agosta 90B) class submarines to provide them with a number of strategic capabilities, and, I think equally important, the agreement on the joint development of air-to-air missiles through the Gökdoğan infrastructure, were all important agenda items that were openly reported and not even discussed in the Turkish social media as much as they were reported in the Indian media. There are even some detailed issues, but I am not sure which is open source information and which is not, so I don't want to speculate.

In short, the opening of the KAAN program to Pakistan has been expected for years, there is nothing surprising in this. In the meantime, -isolating the issue of political instability in Pakistan-, I have the opinion that in general terms, it is extremely compatible with Turkish interests for Pakistan to have a strong military deterrent.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I am only worried about the industrial cooperation between Pakistan and China through J-17, there could be an involuntary transfer of technology from TAI KAAN through Chinese espionage.

 

[boredaf]

I am only worried about the industrial cooperation between Pakistan and China through J-17, there could be an involuntary transfer of technology from TAI KAAN through Chinese espionage.

As if they wouldn't give anything they asked for to China, while owing almost all of their debts, their military imports and increasingly more projects to them. Sentimentality only goes so far between countries, especially in modern times.

 

[Turkic]

Can't we send our own personnel to fill the important positions and keep the critical data away from chinese ?

 

[Tabmachine]

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?

I would agree. The people who run Pakistan are self-serving to the bone. They don't even care about their fellow countrymen why would they care about Turkey?

Turkey has very legitimate interests in Pakistan, but I hope that Turkish decision makers are realistic about what Pakistan is and how they can benefit from it. It's geographical position is useful for Turkeys broader Central Asia strategy, and for other reasons, as well as the nuclear technology. There are good reasons to keep those relations going, especially as the socioeconomic developments in Pakistan continually push it towards a reformation of the system towards something more legitimate.

However, being a naive friend to a ruthless ruling-class of Pakistan, is a recipe for pain. If you want to get a feel for Pakistan read about how they treated the godfather of the nuclear program Abdul Qadeer Khan after he gifted them with the fundamental means to their survival.