TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Huelague]

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

If we can produce YF120-like engine, it would be fantastic.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Neither the F110 nor the F119 is an absolutely high-end engine right now. Turkiye can develop and produce an engine better than F110.

OK, you don't seem to understand Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line just because you or I want it that way. The aircraft also has to be affordable, both in terms of the purchase price for the armed forces and the sales price for export.
If it's more expensive than an F-35/J-35, you've already lost the export market.
The more complex the engine is, the more expensive it is to manufacture and maintain.
Turkey does not have a yearly military budget of 800-900 billion dollars like the US, which develops weapon systems/engines without compromise if it has to.
Therefore, Turkey must first develop an engine that surpasses the upper performance class, in this case the F-110/EJ200.
The dimensions of the F-110 in TAI KAAN are the fixed benchmark, so you can't just change the engine at will, but there are limits set by the size of the F-110.
The F-110 engine has 3 main fans and 9 compressors as well as a low pressure turbine and a high pressure turbine.
One could reduce one of the main fans and one compressor and use 2 low- and high-pressure turbines instead.
The result is an engine with significantly fewer mechanically moving parts. The complexity of the engine is lower, as is the manufacturing and maintenance, and it is still slightly more powerful than an F-110/EJ200. You can still incorporate modern approaches like VCT & Co.
If you then have variable air intakes in the TAI KAAN, you can also trigger a RAM effect and get additional thrust, on average up to 10% more thrust is possible, e.g. for supercruise without afterburner or better thrust in the subsonic range.

 

[Turkic]

Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line just because you or I want it that way.

Actually the needed amount of money do not drastically increase if you're not developing an F-135. It's roughly 3 to 6 billion dollars at countries with high engineering costs. I'm not pointing the number but the fact that it's not much different to develop a 30k lb engine than a 36k lb engine in terms of costs. Spending half a billion more to develop a high-end engine sounds logicful since they're among the most important defence industry products. Also every million you invest in turbofan engines provides you a good increase in performance (if you'll be able to improve it more by spending more). To me, they're price/performance products of defence industry at development stage.

All these I say are outcomes of my basic researches and my thoughts. I'm not a master on this topic. So I might be wrong.

 

[Huelague]

We have an additional military budget of $20 billion for such projects.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkey doesn't have the financial means, you can't just develop an absolutely high end engine and produce it on an assembly line

No one is saying that an absolutely high end engine is to be produced. What KAAN will have is an engine that is similar to an F-119. Probably with few more extras like CMC parts in certain hot sections.

If it's more expensive than an F-35/J-35, you've already lost the export market.

Not really. There are loads of countries that can’t have access to F35. Also we know the performance of Chinese tech. In UCAV scene many countries are switching from Chinese to Turkish. Plus all the countries that already use and are partners with Turkiye, will want to carry on, as weapons business is also based on partnership.

Turkey must first develop an engine that surpasses the upper performance class, in this case the F-110/EJ200.

No! Türkiye will produce an engine that is commensurate with KAAN and its intended performance. It has to have 22000-26000lbf dry thrust and 34000-38000lbf wet thrust. Anything less means the fighter is compromised.

The dimensions of the F-110 in TAI KAAN are the fixed benchmark, so you can't just change the engine at will, but there are limits set by the size of the F-110.
The F-110 engine has 3 main fans and 9 compressors as well as a low pressure turbine and a high pressure turbine.

Not really. As long as the engine compartment of KAAN can house the engine, any size will do.
The number of stages of turbines are there for a reason. But not for what you are mentioning. Generally with a larger fan stage, to be able to drive this large fan more efficiently, a second LP turbine stage is introduced. Because the LP turbine drives the LP fans. But for an engine like KAAN’s, where you don’t have a large fan, it is not necessary to have a second LP turbine stage.
HP Turbine stage drives the HP compressor stages. In most engines a single stage of HP turbine is efficient enough to meet the demands.
These are calculated according to the diameter of the particular stages and the flow speed of the air being forced through them.

The result is an engine with significantly fewer mechanically moving parts. The complexity of the engine is lower, as is the manufacturing and maintenance, and it is still slightly more powerful than an F-110/EJ200

The engine we are trying to manufacture is more complex and intricate than a F110 or EJ200. (Besides EJ200 has too low a thrust for KAAN. It is not correct to even mention it. )
KAAN’s engine has to be complex and intricate. Because this engine has to be stealthy and with very low IR signature.

If you then have variable air intakes in the TAI KAAN

Variable air intakes, used as in f14 and f15 are there to regulate air flow in to the fan section, keeping the speed of flow at subsonic levels. Not for augmenting thrust.
This technology is used in Typhoon too. This is to improve the performance of the plane at high angle of attack at transonic speeds..

 

[uçuyorum]

No one is saying that an absolutely high end engine is to be produced. What KAAN will have is an engine that is similar to an F-119. Probably with few more extras like CMC parts in certain hot sections.


Not really. There are loads of countries that can’t have access to F35. Also we know the performance of Chinese tech. In UCAV scene many countries are switching from Chinese to Turkish. Plus all the countries that already use and are partners with Turkiye, will want to carry on, as weapons business is also a based on partnership.


No! Türkiye will produce an engine that is commensurate with KAAN and its intended performance. It has to have 22000-26000lbf dry thrust and 34000-38000lbf wet thrust. Anything less means the fighter is compromised.

Not really. As long as the engine compartment of KAAN can house the engine, any size will do.
The number of stages of turbines are there for a reason. But not for what you are mentioning. Generally with a larger fan stage, to be able to drive this large fan more efficiently, a second LP turbine stage is introduced. Because the LP turbine drives the LP fans. But for an engine like KAAN’s, where you don’t have a large fan, it is not necessary to have a second LP turbine stage.
HP Turbine stage drives the HP compressor stages. In most engines a single stage of HP turbine is efficient enough to meet the demands.
These are calculated according to the diameter of the particular stages and the flow speed of the air being forced through them.

The engine we are trying to manufacture is more complex and intricate than a F110 or EJ200. (Besides EJ200 has too low a thrust for KAAN. It is not correct to even mention it. )
KAAN’s engine has to be complex and intricate. Because this engine has to be stealthy and with very low IR signature.


Variable air intakes, used as in f14 and f15 are there to regulate air flow in to the fan section, keeping the speed of flow at subsonic levels. Not for augmenting thrust.
This technology is used in Typhoon too. This is to improve the performance of the plane at high angle of attack at transonic speeds..

Difficult to add to stealth s ducts though, isnt it

 

[Saithan]

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

Türkiye and Pakistan Establish Joint Factory for Production of KAAN Fighter Jet

www.armyrecognition.com

This is an interesting news. If it is genuine, then there are many angles with which the dynamics of it, can affect the project KAAN.

Pakistan’s expertise in aerospace is limited to Chinese tech being utilised to assemble an aircraft which is essentially a Chinese jet that uses Russian engine. Although nearly 60% of the aircraft’s fuselage is built in Pakistan, the rest and avionics and many critical weapons are sourced from China unless the Pakistanis have been able to access the Chinese tech regarding their avionics and electronics during the last few years.
So, consequently there are no usefully available critical technologies that we may seek from Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy is in such dire straits that they can’t be expected to help support the KAAN project.
So why should we have a country like Pakistan joining this prestigious programme of ours?

The only answers that come to mind are:
1. There must be a good number of engineers with knowledge of aircraft manufacturing techniques that we can have access to.
2. Manufacturing cost base is cheaper than Türkiye.
3. Should US be difficult in supplying F110 engines, KAAN can be furnished there with Russian or even Chinese engines without causing a political incident.

Any thoughts?

3 I don't want to tell this here but Turkiye is in a backdoor diplomacy process with the Chinese through Pakistan for a backup plan. If the US refuses to supply F110 Turkiye wants to secure Chinese engines at least for Pakistan but Turkiye also evaluates a doomsday scenario in which the US senate completely blocks F110 delivery to Turkiye. China also wants to export its own engines. Turkiye sees no such possibility for F404 at least for the trainer version of Hurjet.

I highly doubt that Pakistan is getting anything other than an assembly line and even that is doubtful because even structural part production and assembly of the fighter involves advanced processes. Production and assembly of JF-17 and Kaan are inherently different.

Turkiye is at a crossroads with the US in nearly everything. Either the US will come to our terms and we will support the US in the era of great power competition (albeit subtly) or the US will continue at the same route and we will take a third-way approach and support neither side and conduct critical business with all players when it is beneficial.

This is what I have been thinking could be a way around. Pakistan may have an economy that's hanging in shambles, but it's got a military that should be able to hold things together, so we're in short investing in an essembly line that could churn out KAAN's and since it's in Pakistance, who's to say that they can't work on a prototype that can use a Chinese engine. What is important here is the electronics to fit inside of such KAAN-P. What we can tell already is that doing that work in Pakistan is much better than doing it in Türkiye, as there are segregation to a certain extent.

And having an Airborn KAAN-P with a chinese engine would place US/West into a magma field. Also I am also certain that KAAN's structure/shape while good/decent isn't unique, so we're delivering a hull that can be used by Pakistan, which would save them cost, and us as well.

In a way we're contributing to keep Pakistan a bit out of China's clutches, as much as possible.

 

[boredaf]

In a way we're contributing to keep Pakistan a bit out of China's clutches, as much as possible.

How? Their army, navy and air force increasingly using Chinese products, almost all of their military imports (something like 80% last time I looked) was from China and almost half of their debt is held by China as well, and they can barely pay that to them.

How are they supposed to pay us for Kaan when they can't even pay their debts that they making to survive another year?

 

[Saithan]

How? Their army, navy and air force increasingly using Chinese products, almost all of their military imports (something like 80% last time I looked) was from China and almost half of their debt is held by China as well, and they can barely pay that to them.

How are they supposed to pay us for Kaan when they can't even pay their debts that they making to survive another year?

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

 

[boredaf]

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

TAI has already stated how many Kaan they can make, multiple times, and if they are not outright lying, why would we need Pakistan to build or assemble anything for us?

 

[Spitfire9]

As I see it we're doing this mostly for ourselves as well. We need an alternative KAAN assembly line, and I assume that our government and TSK have talked it out with Pakistan..

Where else would you put up a secondary assembly line ? other than Türkiye.

I'm not sure Indonesia etc. are close enough or we don't have same level of alliance with them, or many of the others for that sake.
BD, is not yet at that level. etc. etc. I am sure there are more to say, but considering Pakistan has been assembling JF17, I think that's why they decided for it.

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

 

[Saithan]

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

I did not mention Indonesia for a reason. Just remember who aided us during WW1 and the answer should be obvious.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Perhaps I am being ignorant but why should Turkiye need an alternative assembly line in a different location?

Indonesia? Ask ROK what it is like as a partner.

First of all you need to know that Pakistanis see Turks as their brethren. Not just because of the same religion they believe in; But due to their ancestry.
If you check out Indian history before the British, you will find that Indian lands were playing host to no less than 7-8 Turkic states, like Delhi Sultanate, Gaznevids, Mughals etc etc. When India was dominated by the Turkic states, the language of the Army = Ordu in Turkish , became Urdu. Which is the national language of Pakistan today. Urdu is heavily influenced by Turkish (ruling dynasties), Persian (due to their art etc) and Arabic (due to Islam). Today, Pakistan is among the Turkic nations organisation.

There is a strong bond between the two nations. If Turkey is going to help any country, after Azerbaijan, it is Pakistan.

KAAN will use US engines in its first blocks. There is no guarantee that US will freely supply these engines to Turkey. There needs to be a congress approval which is still pending. Until our indigenous engine becomes available, we need engines to power our first block planes and we need engines to sell to our friends that are Embargoed by US.

Without causing a political incident, having an assembly line in a friendly country could be the solution.

So that is the rationale behind the whole discussion. Whether there is any grounds to this line of thought is an open ended case. Until an official statement is made, all anybody can do is speculate.

 

[Huelague]

I did not mention Indonesia for a reason. Just remember who aided us during WW1 and the answer should be obvious.

And their are some „secrets“ more, which everyone suspected, but nobody really knows.

 

[Zoth]

Okay regarding the Pakistan conversation, i will wear my tinfoil hat and make a really big assumption.

Our close ties with Pakistan and intentions of compromising some of stuff in favor of them(like giving them Kaan production-assembly line) in this high matter, probably has to do with their nuclear technology know how and nuclear weapons.

I know, it sounds really funny but if we are secretly aiming to get our hands into nukes(if Iran gets nukes, Saudi arabia will get them too, so we also have to somehow get those toys), Pakistan may be the best choice, given their economic, demographic and more problems and plus good ties with us.

 

[boredaf]

Okay regarding the Pakistan conversation, i will wear my tinfoil hat and make a really big assumption.

Our close ties with Pakistan and intentions of compromising some of stuff in favor of them(like giving them Kaan production-assembly line) in this high matter, probably has to do with their nuclear technology know how and nuclear weapons.

I know, it sounds really funny but if we are secretly aiming to get our hands into nukes(if Iran gets nukes, Saudi arabia will get them too, so we also have to somehow get those toys), Pakistan may be the best choice, given their economic, demographic and more problems and plus good ties with us.

You can't just "secretly" get nukes. Whether you try to produce it yourself or try to get it from somewhere else, everyone and their mums will know immediately that you're trying to get nukes. North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

There is also the fact that Pakistan has access to FC-31, which is now being called J-35 I think, and they might just choose it to simplify their logistics, as they've been trying to do by replacing Western jets with Chinese ones.

 

[Huelague]

North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

Could not or want not.

 

[Spitfire9]

You can't just "secretly" get nukes. Whether you try to produce it yourself or try to get it from somewhere else, everyone and their mums will know immediately that you're trying to get nukes. North Korea has been virtually completely shut off from rest of the world and yet they still couldn't hide it.

There is also the fact that Pakistan has access to FC-31, which is now being called J-35 I think, and they might just choose it to simplify their logistics, as they've been trying to do by replacing Western jets with Chinese ones.

From what I heard via Indian media recently, Pakistan is expected to receive Chinese 5G fighters within the next 2 years.

How does that tie in with getting KAAN in the future?

 

[boredaf]

From what I heard via Indian media recently, Pakistan is expected to receive Chinese 5G fighters within the next 2 years.

How does that tie in with getting KAAN in the future?

I wouldn't trust anything about Pakistan that comes out of India, however, this one was quite literally claimed by an air force official from Pakistan.

In my opinion, it doesn't. There are only 2 countries that operate 2 different kinds of stealth fighter on the planet, and they US and China. I doubt Pakistan is going to be the third, especially since China can just give them a loan to buy them in the first place, unlike us.

 

[Merzifonlu]

KAAN will use US engines in its first blocks. There is no guarantee that US will freely supply these engines to Turkey. There needs to be a congress approval which is still pending. Until our indigenous engine becomes available, we need engines to power our first block planes and we need engines to sell to our friends that are Embargoed by US.

If the USA does not give us GE F110E engines, I think the following will happen: The "Kaan-P" fighter jet will be put into production with China's WS-10G engine and these engines will be assembled on the fuselage in Pakistan.Then some of these aircraft will be deployed in Turkiye and their pilots will be Pakistani. Until when? Until the Kaan enters service with the our TF-36000 engine.

BTW, I think we should call this engine TF-36000 from now on. Because its thrust was officially announced as 36000 lbf.