TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Fairon]

Postponing previously given first flight dates without explanation is totally unprofessional.

Remember Mahmut Aksit, when TF6000 was delayed by 6 months he came clean and stated that a simple part that was available normally, was made unavailable. So they had to produce it in house, causing the delay.

Mr Demiroglu initially had given a First flight date of last quarter of 2025. Then he postponed it to beginning of April 2026, without any reasons. That was 3 months to 6 months delay at best and at worst over the previously given date. Now another couple of months delay! No explanation again. This is becoming the norm and a joke!

In production delays may occur. In development work they may be even more frequent. But there is always an explainable reason. For a program like KAAN, that is being followed by everyone in close scrutiny, to just postpone is wrong.

We have a saying in Turkish ; (Gelen gldeni arattırır) . I guess the closest translation is “the better the devil you know”.
Kotil was at least “closer” to being a man of his word.

Sadly, Mahmut Aksit is alone in this regard.

I don't remember any other company as open as TEI regarding the problems during the processes. We only pick something might going wrong when there is concurrent delays or some abnormality during the development progress.(And usually had to pick up from parts of the statements or the published tests videos for the tests that should've been done years ago)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Not at all, his timelines moved like lines in the sand all the time.

There is a delay, there will be many more delays. We should accept that there will be delays and also demand explanation for the delays. It is billions of our taxpayer money and the most important and hardest undertaking of this country since 1922.

That is why I said “closer”.
During Kotil’s tenure there were delays too. But he did give reasons. His deadlines were too ambitious and aggressive. But during his time:

• KAAN (TF-X): Maiden flight on February 21, 2024.
• Hürjet: First flight on April 25, 2023.
• Anka-3 UCAV: First flight on December 28, 2023.
• T929 Atak 2: First flight on April 28, 2023.

were accomplished . During he was in charge, we were subject to more stringent and widespread hidden embargoes too.

 

[boredaf]

T929 Atak 2: First flight on April 28, 2023.

Mate, please don't count that abomination among the others. That was perhaps the single most blatant propagandization of defence industry I have ever seen. It was clearly not even close to being a ground test unit when it made that flight. And then he promised it would be delivered to army last year, instead of letting it slide into obscurity. He was living in a fantasy world of his own, if he had stayed, none of his deadlines could have ever been made in real world.

 

[2033]

Mate, please don't count that abomination among the others. That was perhaps the single most blatant propagandization of defence industry I have ever seen. It was clearly not even close to being a ground test unit when it made that flight. And then he promised it would be delivered to army last year, instead of letting it slide into obscurity. He was living in a fantasy world of his own, if he had stayed, none of his deadlines could have ever been made in real world.

Crossing the psychological threshold was important. Temel Kotil made significant initial moves. He had to deal with intense criticism from both inside and outside. The current managers are not under that level of pressure

 

[Pilatino]

Mr. Demiroglu said Kaan will be 5.5 at some point. It's better than nothing to start with I guess I'll continue to push for 6th gen labeling harder and harder cuz it deserves that!

 

[Yasar_TR]

Mate, please don't count that abomination among the others. That was perhaps the single most blatant propagandization of defence industry I have ever seen. It was clearly not even close to being a ground test unit when it made that flight. And then he promised it would be delivered to army last year, instead of letting it slide into obscurity. He was living in a fantasy world of his own, if he had stayed, none of his deadlines could have ever been made in real world.

Bro, I agree with you that it was an abomination of a helicopter. But nevertheless it flew to prove a point. You can’t show a single move of this administration related to defence industry, that is publicised, that does not have a political agenda and is not used as a propaganda tool.
That Soviet era Ukranian engine should never have been attached to that modern helicopter. But it happened and served a purpose.
Please don’t take my above two posts as a defence for Kotil. As I said : Better the devil you know. This one has yet to prove his worth. So far nothing positive yet. For the sake of our defence industry, I would love to be proven wrong about him though.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Today, it hardly makes sense to develop a classic heavy combat helicopter. Turkey primarily needs light and medium combat helicopters that are agile and dynamic, not expensive heavy gunships based on the Apache or Ka-52 models.
The war in Ukraine has clearly shown that heavy combat helicopters are extremely vulnerable. Many Russian helicopters were shot down in ambushes by VSHORAD/MANPADS and, increasingly, by FPV drones. In a battlefield saturated with sensors, drones and air defence systems, large manned helicopters are high-value targets with a high risk of loss.
In addition, the cost-benefit factor is no longer proportional: a modern combat helicopter costs tens of millions of dollars, while it can be countered by comparatively inexpensive drones or portable air defence systems.
The concept is moving towards networked systems consisting of drones, sensor platforms and optionally manned aircraft.
For Turkey, therefore, a focus on light and medium combat helicopters in combination with armed drones, loitering munitions and modern air defence makes much more sense than developing a heavy combat helicopter.

It was right to put the project on hold indefinitely.

 

[Pete Mitchell Maverick]

I don't think a delay of a few months is anything to exaggerate in such a large project. I'd like to remind you that even the F-35 project was delayed for years, and America is a country with decades more experience than us in 5th generation aircraft.

While not a perfect match, a company like Boeing delayed the delivery of its 777X aircraft by 7 years. If even a company that has been producing aircraft for 100 years is experiencing problems, this situation is quite normal for TUSAŞ. After all, it's an expensive prototype, and they want it to take off without any problems.

 

[Sanchez]

I don't think a delay of a few months is anything to exaggerate in such a large project. I'd like to remind you that even the F-35 project was delayed for years, and America is a country with decades more experience than us in 5th generation aircraft.

While not a perfect match, a company like Boeing delayed the delivery of its 777X aircraft by 7 years. If even a company that has been producing aircraft for 100 years is experiencing problems, this situation is quite normal for TUSAŞ. After all, it's an expensive prototype, and they want it to take off without any problems.

There will be many more delays in aircraft and engine production and development. Let's just say that finalization of EFs for the air force was a huge boon.

 

[Zafer]

There will be many more delays in aircraft and engine production and development. Let's just say that finalization of EFs for the air force was a huge boon.

Anka3 and Kızılelma are on fast track to compensate, I wouldn't worry. Going forward we are yet to see if more machine or more men will be in the field so that we adjust what we want to have for fighters. If a naval Kızılelma with beefed up specs makes sense we take that path. In any case our companies will have had huge experience to use when they want to develop another fighter. If they can roll out a new plane in 2 years lets say with all the experience they will have then there is no rush. We need to field what we have already developed and see how they are coping and move on from there. We just need to make sure we have the components like engines and sensors ready to go.

 

[Yasar_TR]

There will be many more delays in aircraft and engine production and development. Let's just say that finalization of EFs for the air force was a huge boon.

I agree. There will be unforeseen delays along the way. That is inevitable. But it mustn’t become the norm. And when it happens, credible reasons will have to be provided.

Another point that needs to be addressed is that, a lot of members have far too much expectations for the Anka-3 and KE.

For these platforms to perform like manned jets there is still a lot of hurdles to overcome. Therefore they will have to serve and operate with ground control being in charge. To have total AI control or react like a manned aircraft will take time. Satellite controlled UAVs will have to be the norm in spite of their latency problems. LOS control of these will have range and terrain obstructions limitations.

Both LOS and Satellite control will have problems of EW and jamming in the days to come. Quite likely many countries are working on disrupting control signals and making UCAVs useless.

Best way to operate them will be as loyal wingman. Manned Unmanned team work will in the short term prove itself most useful.

We have to remember that we are still using UBAS firing system on most of our F16s and Azerbaijani Su25s when firing, SOM, Gokdogan, Bozdogan munitions. Ozgur and Kaan will be the first platforms with which we will try our platform controlled missile launches.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I wondered whether a so-called "ring exchange" between Turkey and South Korea would be possible from around 2035 onwards – specifically between the KAI KF-21 Boramae and the TAI KAAN.
South Korea is currently pursuing a similar strategy to Turkey by gradually replacing US subsystems in the KF-21 with its own national components. It is realistic to assume that a largely ITAR-free KF-21 could be available by 2035, including radar, avionics, electronic warfare and, in the future, the engine.
Turkey needs a carrier-based fighter aircraft in the medium term, while South Korea is primarily seeking a powerful air superiority fighter for the Pacific region. Against this backdrop, an exchange model could make strategic sense:
Turkey would receive a naval-capable variant of the KF-21 as a carrier aircraft, while South Korea could in return deploy the KAAN as a high-performance air superiority fighter.
Such a model would enable both countries to meet their respective operational requirements while further expanding their technological independence from third countries.

I toyed with this idea because there is already a comparable example of successful Turkish-Korean defence cooperation: the technology transfer from South Korea's K2 Black Panther -> Turkey's Altay Tank.

 

[TR_123456]

I wondered whether a so-called "ring exchange" between Turkey and South Korea would be possible from around 2035 onwards – specifically between the KAI KF-21 Boramae and the TAI KAAN.
South Korea is currently pursuing a similar strategy to Turkey by gradually replacing US subsystems in the KF-21 with its own national components. It is realistic to assume that a largely ITAR-free KF-21 could be available by 2035, including radar, avionics, electronic warfare and, in the future, the engine.
Turkey needs a carrier-based fighter aircraft in the medium term, while South Korea is primarily seeking a powerful air superiority fighter for the Pacific region. Against this backdrop, an exchange model could make strategic sense:
Turkey would receive a naval-capable variant of the KF-21 as a carrier aircraft, while South Korea could in return deploy the KAAN as a high-performance air superiority fighter.
Such a model would enable both countries to meet their respective operational requirements while further expanding their technological independence from third countries.

I toyed with this idea because there is already a comparable example of successful Turkish-Korean defence cooperation: the technology transfer from South Korea's K2 Black Panther -> Turkey's Altay Tank.

Yeah but it was only one way,why would South-Korea do that when there are other(''better'') options?

 

[Sattifarhan]

Indonesia’s KAAN Deal Hinges on an ITAR-Free Jet​

Jakarta: No ITAR Exposure​

Indonesia says it will buy KAAN only if the jet is free of U.S.-controlled components under ITAR. In other words, the KAAN fighter jet from Indonesia being ITAR-free is not a slogan—it is the purchase condition. From the Indonesian government, US components are a big no from their side.

ITAR Changes for Operators​

Even when building a platform outside the United States, ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) can apply. Washington can still influence export, re-export, modification, and upgrade pathways if a subsystem, software, or technical data originates from the United States and is under its control.

Sources

• https://defensenewstoday.info/indonesias-kaan-deal-hinges-on-an-itar-free-jet/
• https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/indonesia-kaan-fighter-jet-deal-us-free-components/
• https://defensemirror.com/news/40950/Indonesia_to_Buy_Turkish_KAAN_Fighter_if_it_is_Free_of_U_S__Components

 

[Sanchez]

First, direct, open extension of hands to Spain for Kaan that I remember.

The Turkish fighter jet manufacturer leaves the door open to Spain amid the FCAS standstill​

The first prototype of the KAAN fighter jet could be ready by June of this year, with the first deliveries scheduled for 2029.

El fabricante del avión de combate turco deja la puerta abierta a España ante la parálisis del FCAS

Mientras el Futuro Sistema Aéreo de Combate (FCAS, por sus siglas en inglés), el proyecto en el que participa España junto a Alemania y Francia, continúa

www.elindependiente.com

 

[Iskander]

First, direct, open extension of hands to Spain for Kaan that I remember.

The Turkish fighter jet manufacturer leaves the door open to Spain amid the FCAS standstill​

The first prototype of the KAAN fighter jet could be ready by June of this year, with the first deliveries scheduled for 2029.

El fabricante del avión de combate turco deja la puerta abierta a España ante la parálisis del FCAS

Mientras el Futuro Sistema Aéreo de Combate (FCAS, por sus siglas en inglés), el proyecto en el que participa España junto a Alemania y Francia, continúa

www.elindependiente.com

FCAS's first flight is scheduled for 2035.
10 years! That's a long time.

In about 10 years, Türkiye produced 9 aircraft

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dosya-haber/turkiye-yaklasik-10-yilda-9-milli-platformu-ucurdu/3144779&ved=2ahUKEwjdkqzu8beSAxVOgv0HHao-NOIQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw13WYeXVG378FG9FC4e0h38

 

[Spitfire9]

First, direct, open extension of hands to Spain for Kaan that I remember.

The Turkish fighter jet manufacturer leaves the door open to Spain amid the FCAS standstill​

The first prototype of the KAAN fighter jet could be ready by June of this year, with the first deliveries scheduled for 2029.

When I read about FCAS problems I read only of the France-Germany problems regarding their interests. No mention of Spain's interests. In Spain's shoes I would be thinking of getting away from the other partners if I could see a way out. Some involvement in KAAN is a possible way out.

I guess that if FCAS folds in the next few months, Spain will be interested in any offer Turkiye makes. Apart from buying aircraft for its air force, what could Spain do as a partner to contribute to the success of the programme? What contribution do the current partners make?

 

[Pokemonte13]

When I read about FCAS problems I read only of the France-Germany problems regarding their interests. No mention of Spain's interests. In Spain's shoes I would be thinking of getting away from the other partners if I could see a way out. Some involvement in KAAN is a possible way out.

I guess that if FCAS folds in the next few months, Spain will be interested in any offer Turkiye makes. Apart from buying aircraft for its air force, what could Spain do as a partner to contribute to the success of the programme? What contribution do the current partners make?

They would probably have something similar to Hürjet if it comes to that. Integration of subsystems(electronics...) and even a full contributors like in the F35 program so that they produce some parts of body. But all depends if they want to be a full member or just want to buy some 80 aircraft with some local input.

 

[Strong AI]

April is back on the menu boyz

Emphasizing that they aim to begin test flights with the KAAN prototype by the end of April, Demiroğlu announced that their exports exceeded 1 billion dollars last year, and that their target for this year is 1.5 billion dollars.

Milli savaş uçağı KAAN’da test uçuşu için tarih verildi

Haber 7 - Milli savaş uçağı KAAN prototipiyle test uçuşlarına başlamayı hedeflediklerini vurgulayan (TUSAŞ) Genel Müdürü Mehmet Demiroğlu, geçen ihracatta 1 milyar dolar üzerine çıktıklarını, hedeflerinin bu yıl 1,5 milyar dolar olacağını açıkladı.

m.haber7.com

 

[Zafer]

April is back on the menu boyz

Emphasizing that they aim to begin test flights with the KAAN prototype by the end of April, Demiroğlu announced that their exports exceeded 1 billion dollars last year, and that their target for this year is 1.5 billion dollars.

Milli savaş uçağı KAAN’da test uçuşu için tarih verildi

Haber 7 - Milli savaş uçağı KAAN prototipiyle test uçuşlarına başlamayı hedeflediklerini vurgulayan (TUSAŞ) Genel Müdürü Mehmet Demiroğlu, geçen ihracatta 1 milyar dolar üzerine çıktıklarını, hedeflerinin bu yıl 1,5 milyar dolar olacağını açıkladı.

m.haber7.com

It is like losing the donkey and finding it back.