The use of proxies by India and Pakistan.

[Kaptaan]

Interesting discussion on the use of proxies, deciet, killing and deception by Indian RAW and Pakistan's ISI.

 

[Jackdaws]

The Print is now my primary source of Indian news. No BS and jingoism. Just old school journalism.

 

[crixus]

I am still wondering if to believe him or not as per the author :

1) Kulbhushan Jadhav was noy an Intelligence Officer , how may Pakistanis will agree to that .
2) Fat bureaucratic Organization like R&AW can move from Afghanistan to Peshawar and Quetta.
3) I am not able to decide whether to laugh or cry when he said Indian officers went and settled in POK
4) He claimed R&AW has infiltrated in the LET and other grps.

Biggest joke is R&AW can use proxies LoL

The fact is ISI is far superior then R&AW and R&AW sucks in very very basic things major failures KArgil infiltration , Chinese infiltration in Bhutan and list is long , while ISI has bled India from 2002 to 2014 , Indian Mujahiddin was the best thought creation , Indian agencies sucked even to figure out who they were .......

I still believe IB is doing far better job then R&AW

@Nilgiri check this out

 

[TR_123456]

Interesting discussion on the use of proxies, deciet, killing and deception by Indian RAW and Pakistan's ISI.

Which proxies do the Indians use,cant think of any?

 

[Raptor]

Which proxies do the Indians use,cant think of any?

None,we used only LTTE&mukti back In old days rest are speculation of Pakistan without proof.
R&AW then was one of most competent intelligence agency until a stupid PM came and told about all the operations to pak PM,and numerous other measures were took to destroy the agency.

 

[crixus]

Which proxies do the Indians use,cant think of any?

He meant Ikhwanis

 

[Lonewolf]

He meant Ikhwanis

They weren't proxies ,our people in our soil aren't proxies .

Pakistan play this dirty game as this is last resort for them and it burns them bad too .

We haven't done anything like that yet

 

[Kaptaan]

Clearly non of you bothered to listen to the link. India is kneed deep in use of proxies, exactly in equal measure as Pakistan so don't play that "we don't do" card.

When I get time I will list the contents of the link. The only essential differance is India has managed to build a narrative of innocence. The facts are both countries use proxies.

Sure, Pakistan has faced more blowback because of the geography and Afghanistan.

 

[Jackdaws]

Clearly non of you bothered to listen to the link. India is kneed deep in use of proxies, exactly in equal measure as Pakistan so don't play that "we don't do" card.

When I get time I will list the contents of the link. The only essential differance is India has managed to build a narrative of innocence. The facts are both countries use proxies.

Sure, Pakistan has faced more blowback because of the geography and Afghanistan.

Pakistan has faced more blowback because what it has indulged in isn't just spycraft ; it has crossed the line multiple times to directly be a state sponsor of terrorism in India. That's why it finds itself on the FATF grey list.

 

[Kaptaan]

Pakistan has faced more blowback because what it has indulged in isn't just spycraft ; it has crossed the line multiple times to directly be a state sponsor of terrorism in India. That's why it finds itself on the FATF grey list.

You people really live in a altered reality. First you even deny India ever engages indulges in proxy wars. Then when that position becomes untenable you jump on to the next branch.

India has actually been involved in more, yes more proxy driven terrorism then Pakistan. Just off my head, in Bangla 1971, Sri Lanka 1980s and inside Pakistan.

The only real blowback Pakistan has faced is from the Afghan imroglio and even that is because of the convergence of western interests which brought global limelight. In the west most of the time they don't give a flying frigg if 3rd worlders are being blown away. However if it begins to effect western people then it turns into global issue.

Because of geography and the Islamism which mutated from the Middle Eastern conflicts in Palestine - which the west is deeply involved Pakistan got sucked into it. Had it been Hindu Tamils wasting people with suicide squads or Mukhto Bangla terrorists both financed, supplied by India nobody in the west would give a toss.

 

[Kaptaan]

The take away from the OP is India and Pakistan equally indulged in proxy wars, yes equally. However India was more succesful in masking this effort and built up a benign narrative. Other that both are as dirty.

 

[Lonewolf]

The take away from the OP is India and Pakistan equally indulged in proxy wars, yes equally. However India was more succesful in masking this effort and built up a benign narrative. Other that both are as dirty.

That's world of spycraft my boy , their is nothing dirty or pure in it , it's mere buisness .

But you guys breed freaking lashkar e taiba , and JeM , those pigs come to kashmir to be ripped apart in pieces every now and then by IA .

We supported mukti bahini as a freedom struggle against rapist nature of western pakistan army at that time .

LTTE was formed due to exodus of tamils in sri lanka by sinhala , but it later turned rogue .


Whereas pakistan breed terrorist on its soil and help in infiltration along international border by providing cover fire to terrorist .

DO YOU WANNA SEE THOSE PHOTOS AND NEWS HEADLINES ?

Pakistan has been a TERROR SPONSOR , osama wasn't found in India .

 

[Jackdaws]

You people really live in a altered reality. First you even deny India ever engages indulges in proxy wars. Then when that position becomes untenable you jump on to the next branch.

India has actually been involved in more, yes more proxy driven terrorism then Pakistan. Just off my head, in Bangla 1971, Sri Lanka 1980s and inside Pakistan.

The only real blowback Pakistan has faced is from the Afghan imroglio and even that is because of the convergence of western interests which brought global limelight. In the west most of the time they don't give a flying frigg if 3rd worlders are being blown away. However if it begins to effect western people then it turns into global issue.

Because of geography and the Islamism which mutated from the Middle Eastern conflicts in Palestine - which the west is deeply involved Pakistan got sucked into it. Had it been Hindu Tamils wasting people with suicide squads or Mukhto Bangla terrorists both financed, supplied by India nobody in the west would give a toss.

When did I deny it? Don't lie.

What Bangla proxies? If the state of Pakistan was engaging in genocide against its own people and 10 million of them were flooding India for refuge, you expected that there won't be a reaction?

Fanning flames of dissent is completely different from engineering terror attacks. There is nothing else to it.

 

[crixus]

They weren't proxies ,our people in our soil aren't proxies .

Pakistan play this dirty game as this is last resort for them and it burns them bad too .

We haven't done anything like that yet

You are right but he actually mean Ikhwanis and coupta dint even counterd that

 

[crixus]

None,we used only LTTE&mukti back In old days rest are speculation of Pakistan without proof.
R&AW then was one of most competent intelligence agency until a stupid PM came and told about all the operations to pak PM,and numerous other measures were took to destroy the agency.

The difference between use of proxies by India and Pakistan , Pakistan becoem epicentre of global proxies from PLO to Al-Queda all found support and solace inside Pakistan , on the other hand in India they are pretty controlled in what they do . I love the Psych games . Let me put one example.

1) Srilankan team visists Pakistan a low grade , non lethal attack happens on bus and suddenly all sporting activities halted in Pakistan , here the incident was not impaortant but its impact you still see in Pakistan. No one knows who did that

2) Many contries have Nukes , but when some discusses nukes fell in hands of rouge terrorists , the name of which country comes in mind.

3) For India we are good in teaching lessons , like Rajpakshe lost govt in Sri Lanka , similar action happened in Maldives and now Nepal is on same path .

4) Banladesh become very difficult for North East gurillas for refuge purposes and ULFA become an historic organization and just a question how the attitude of Bangladesh changed

The only thing matters is result irrespective of the way its been achieved , Mossad believs in fear and R&AW believes in low profile with a tag of un efficiency . More or less both achieves the results

 

[Seres pumilio]

ISI concentrates its operations more on kinetic actions through religious fundamentalists. ISI hardly has any industrial and political espionage footprint on the world stage. We are only limited to rag tag organizations. It is also the reason why its activities are more public. They did do a commendable job in the bosniyan war but that was the end of their political arm, since the early 90s they moved their focus to sabotaging Kashmir rather than increasing Pakistans political & economic footprint.

RAW on the other hand has been designed to perform industrial espionage and political sabotages. Political de-throwning in srilanka, Maldives, Nepal & certain back channel deals with assad gov are few of the recent operations. If you go back in time the industrial espionage on a British supplier of PA to buy winter clothing before the Siachen glacier was done by RAW. Some of the more interesting operations was disappearing a Norwegian ship carrying heavy water, assisting Americans in Chili coup d'état and extracting compromised Pakistan general from islamabad for the americas in 2009.

Those who know the the real capabilities of either organizations have a clear choice of whom to approach in time of need.

 

[crixus]

ISI concentrates its operations more on kinetic actions through religious fundamentalists. ISI hardly has any industrial and political espionage footprint on the world stage. We are only limited to rag tag organizations. It is also the reason why its activities are more public. They did do a commendable job in the bosniyan war but that was the end of their political arm, since the early 90s they moved their focus to sabotaging Kashmir rather than increasing Pakistans political & economic footprint.

RAW on the other hand has been designed to perform industrial espionage and political sabotages. Political de-throwning in srilanka, Maldives, Nepal & certain back channel deals with assad gov are few of the recent operations. If you go back in time the industrial espionage on a British supplier of PA to buy winter clothing before the Siachen glacier was done by RAW. Some of the more interesting operations was disappearing a Norwegian ship carrying heavy water, assisting Americans in Chili coup d'état and extracting compromised Pakistan general from islamabad for the americas in 2009.

Those who know the the real capabilities of either organizations have a clear choice of whom to approach in time of need.

Probably ask @Paro for more operations if he is around. He spent a lot of time skimming archives back in the day.

I literally agree with you , R&AW might have hit teams in 80's and they run some low grade insurgency in Pakistani Punjab in 80's but thats it . Their way to achieve things is very different from ISI's .
In Pakistan every tom dick and Harry knows about ISI and their no. 1 tag while R&AW is very low profile , their only achievemnets in publi is their failures. I never saw any R&AW official bragging about successful operations while on the other hand you find Pakistani generals bragging about ISI .

The final thing is providing results and if you can achieve by non kinetic then no need of bloodshed and now its time for R&AW to focus more on eastern side then Pakistan .

I feel MI , DIA and NTRO should be enough to handle Pakistan and R&AWs main focus should be China not Pakistan.

Regading Bosnia war whats was their aim and were they able to achieve that

 

[Nilgiri]

I am still wondering if to believe him or not as per the author :

1) Kulbhushan Jadhav was noy an Intelligence Officer , how may Pakistanis will agree to that .
2) Fat bureaucratic Organization like R&AW can move from Afghanistan to Peshawar and Quetta.
3) I am not able to decide whether to laugh or cry when he said Indian officers went and settled in POK
4) He claimed R&AW has infiltrated in the LET and other grps.

Biggest joke is R&AW can use proxies LoL

The fact is ISI is far superior then R&AW and R&AW sucks in very very basic things major failures KArgil infiltration , Chinese infiltration in Bhutan and list is long , while ISI has bled India from 2002 to 2014 , Indian Mujahiddin was the best thought creation , Indian agencies sucked even to figure out who they were .......

I still believe IB is doing far better job then R&AW

@Nilgiri check this out

Intelligence networks, more than any other realm, require sound trust within itself.

It is invariably very sensitive and reliant on a few core people and their teams....more than any other realm I can think of.

Hence they are especially vulnerable in their early days of formation and gestation given the psychology needing to be nurtured inside it in steady basis (if you study how Mossad went about it, as the size of their country had no option otherwise unlike India which often falls back on it like a lounging elephant)

It is somewhat long awry subject to both look into and imagine the full impact of the effect just one Indian PM (Desai) had on RAW given its relative infancy (w.r.t R.N Kao + B. Raman impetus and having 1971 to cut its teeth on and learn from) at the time.

It would be something of the scale of JFK or Jimmy Carter taking some political revenge on their immediate predecessors and dousing a tree and many saplings around it with a whole bunch of potent herbicides....and ruining all the gardening work of Dulles et al...and basically gutting the CIA in a fell swoop (and bearing out the impact of that in the cold war).

This presents serious setback to the whole organisation psychologically (can it ever take wing under any other leader again?).

Consider this marine vs naval officer exchange (some might know the movie its from):

J.N: Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?

T.C: No, sir.

J.N: We follow orders, son. We follow orders or people die. It's that simple. Are we clear?

This takes an altogether higher intense dimension (the good, the bad, the ugly of it) in intel agencies given its covert realm (that armed forces dont experience).

What PM I.G did was wrong (regarding the emergency and her various other dabbles in authoritarianism)....but going after RAW in the particular manner her successor did (by whatever combination of malice and incompetence) was one of the worst decisions a PM has ever done in context of its derived accumulated cost on the nation.

He even got a Nishan-E-Pak for what he did, adding the biggest insult to injury.

It has borne out a real impact on RAW....doubt it ever could or did recover....much less fulfill the potential it heralded in case of East Pakistan.

IB never faced something like that (given its particular formation + gestation period well removed and thus carrying flourished institutional heft more resilient to political revenge etc).

Hence the differences you (and others) have noticed.

The nature of exploring these opaque realms does provide lot of interest for writers, journalists and the larger audience seeking answers and intrigue.

But the catch 22 is this very much relies on a number of leaks and mess-ups of the opaque box, its not the usual transparent flow of info such people are used to.

So I listen and nod when I come across it (if it is able to retain my interest in first place), but who really knows the actual details (trying to being aired out) even 50 or 100 years later.

Ever tried a jigsaw puzzle with way too many pieces missing?