There was a coup in Myanmar

Indos

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Mr Usman and Mr Harun were hanged by Singapore.

Indonesian response: Christen a naval ship after them.

It should be clear which of these two actions is more decisive.

Look, dont lie too much. The ship is bought during Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration (2004-2014), not during Soekarno rule who ordered the bombing.

They have bombed the Singapore and killed many people and captured by Singaporean. Look you better debate like an honest person, not like a girl who keep talking during a fight. I have asked your gender before that you refuse to disclose.......

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The MacDonald House bombing occurred on 10 March 1965, at the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank building (currently known as MacDonald House) along Orchard Road of Singapore, a few months before Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. The nitroglycerin bomb was planted by Indonesian saboteurs during the period of Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation (known as Konfrontasi). The explosion killed three people and injured at least 33 others.[1][2]


During the Konfrontasi, where Indonesia openly opposed the formation of Malaysia, Indonesian saboteurs mounted a campaign of terror in Singapore. There were a total of 37 bombings from 1963 to 1966. They were trained to attack military installations and public utilities. However, when the saboteurs failed in their attempts to attack these installations that were heavily guarded, they set off bombs indiscriminately to create panic and disrupt life on the island. By 1964, bomb explosions became frequent. To help the police and army defend Singapore from these attacks, a volunteer force was set up. More than 10,000 people signed up as volunteers. Community Centers served as bases for the volunteers to patrol their neighbourhoods. In schools, students underwent bomb drills. The government also warned Singaporeans not to handle any suspicious-looking parcels in the buildings or along streets. Despite the efforts of the British, small groups of saboteurs managed to infiltrate the island and plant bombs. By March 1965, a total of 29 bombs had been set off in Singapore.


 
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ekemenirtu

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This is not a valid argument. This is an example of an ad hominem.

The Lowy Institute presents facts and figures, that are verifiable. Using such facts and figures, they have used a unique methodology to rank countries based on their national power.

You may disagree with their methodology.

How could anybody disagree with the facts unless they can produce facts that disprove the authenticity of the sources presented by Lowy Institute?

Instead, you choose mere words - which do not in any way - rank countries nor do those words provide any methodology which can be used for ranking countries.



Look, you debate like a girl, believe what you want to believe dude....
 
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ekemenirtu

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You have once again accused me of lying.

That is a serious charge but you have not explained how, or where, I have lied. Would a kind moderator like @Test7 or @Cabatli_53 or any other moderator kindly take a look?

You are free to agree or disagree, and present facts and figures to dispute my position.

However, does that mean he is allowed to repeatedly accuse me of lying without any evidence whatsoever?


Look, dont lie too much. The ship is bought during Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration (2004-2014), not during Soekarno rule who ordered the bombing.

They were hanged.

Singapore: Hangs Mr Usman, Mr Harun

Indonesia: Christens a ship after them.

I believe these simple, verifiable facts are easy to understand for everybody, involved and not involved, in these affairs.

It should be abundantly clear which of these actions was more decisive as well. I don't believe there is any need to argue or debate over this simple matter.

May I also remind you that Wikipedia is not a credible source of information or a credible reference whatsoever?

They have bombed the Singapore and killed many people and captured by Singaporean. Look you better debate like an honest person, not like a girl who keep talking during a fight. I have asked your gender before that you refuse to disclose.......

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The MacDonald House bombing occurred on 10 March 1965, at the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank building (currently known as MacDonald House) along Orchard Road of Singapore, a few months before Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. The nitroglycerin bomb was planted by Indonesian saboteurs during the period of Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation (known as Konfrontasi). The explosion killed three people and injured at least 33 others.[1][2]


During the Konfrontasi, where Indonesia openly opposed the formation of Malaysia, Indonesian saboteurs mounted a campaign of terror in Singapore. There were a total of 37 bombings from 1963 to 1966. They were trained to attack military installations and public utilities. However, when the saboteurs failed in their attempts to attack these installations that were heavily guarded, they set off bombs indiscriminately to create panic and disrupt life on the island. By 1964, bomb explosions became frequent. To help the police and army defend Singapore from these attacks, a volunteer force was set up. More than 10,000 people signed up as volunteers. Community Centers served as bases for the volunteers to patrol their neighbourhoods. In schools, students underwent bomb drills. The government also warned Singaporeans not to handle any suspicious-looking parcels in the buildings or along streets. Despite the efforts of the British, small groups of saboteurs managed to infiltrate the island and plant bombs. By March 1965, a total of 29 bombs had been set off in Singapore.


 

Indos

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This is not a valid argument. This is an example of an ad hominem.

The Lowy Institute presents facts and figures, that are verifiable. Using such facts and figures, they have used a unique methodology to rank countries based on their national power.

You may disagree with their methodology.

How could anybody disagree with the facts unless they can produce facts that disprove the authenticity of the sources presented by Lowy Institute?

Instead, you choose mere words - which do not in any way - rank countries nor do those words provide any methodology which can be used for ranking countries.

Reasonable person who are intelligent enough will not use that. This is why US estimation is 100 % opposite with that Australian think thank.

U.S.-INDONESIA RELATIONS


Indonesia is a vital partner in the Indo-Pacific Region and U.S.-Indonesia relations have taken on increasing importance. Indonesia is the world’s third largest democracy, largest Muslim-majority country, the seventh-largest economy by purchasing power, and a leader in ASEAN.

 
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ekemenirtu

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You are beginning to lose whatever little credibility you had left.

As already explained above, and repeated for your convenience:

The Lowy Institute presents facts and figures, that are verifiable. Using such facts and figures, they have used a unique methodology to rank countries based on their national power.

You may disagree with their methodology.

How could anybody disagree with the facts unless they can produce facts that disprove the authenticity of the sources presented by Lowy Institute?

Instead, you choose mere words - which do not in any way - rank countries nor do those words provide any methodology which can be used for ranking countries.


Reasonable person who are intelligent enough will not use that. This is why US estimation is 100 % opposite with that Australian think thank.

U.S.-INDONESIA RELATIONS


Indonesia is a vital partner in the Indo-Pacific Region and U.S.-Indonesia relations have taken on increasing importance. Indonesia is the world’s third largest democracy, largest Muslim-majority country, the seventh-largest economy by purchasing power, and a leader in ASEAN.

 

Test7

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I want to give a verbal warning about this. I think you both have the capacity to have a respectful discussion.
 

Indos

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May I also remind you that Wikipedia is not a credible source of information or a credible reference whatsoever?

The 37 bombing by Indonesian is also reported in Singaporean mainstream and respected media.

"Three people died and 33 people were injured, in the worst of 37 attacks in Singapore by Indonesian saboteurs."


This is what I say you debate for the sake of winning the debate.
 

schuimpjes

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The Konfrontasi, between Indonesia and Malaysia, began in 1962 and ended in 1966 with a decisive Indonesian defeat.
Huh.. Even me myself as Indonesian, I disagree with Konfrontasi. The rhetorics that was used by Soekarno was nothing but just a leftist rhetorics like Nekolim (Neo Kolonialisme), Imperialisme, and stuffs.

Indonesian Army in early 60s (in the time of Yani's leadership), was could be called as the Anti Communists and Western Minded (Many officers of the Army was educated by the US and became "pro" More to the West, not like Omar Dhani's US school that only for "technical" Not "ideological") in the time where PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) had so much influence in the country, were also against the Konfrontasi. A Yani was sent Ali Moertopo's OPSUS to created backdoor diplomacy with the Malaysia and basically said that the Army was actually not wholeheartedly to fought the Malaysian. And also don't forget widely known non-ideological (although he was also known in some political club in Jogja) Soeharto, he was often said to Soekarno "the flight can't be fly, pak. The weather is not good". Still, I can say, that the army don't want to lose their face from Soekarno, so they were still sent (not as much as gung ho Pro Soekarno air force (even little bit leftist) ) troops there to the North.

I tell you that, to make you know that not all Indonesian were Pro to that Konfrontasi.

And also about ships. My opinion, I don't know how stupid or because too nationalistic or whatever that called, we put the name Usman Harun. If I'm the one that could change that, sure I would change that, than had to open the old wound again.
 
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Indos

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Singapore came into existence as a country in 1965. The Konfrontasi, between Indonesia and Malaysia, began in 1962 and ended in 1966 with a decisive Indonesian defeat.

There was no Indonesian declaration of war against the Republic of Singapore, that came into existence only in 1965.

Indonesian declaration of war was only against the then newly formed federation of Malaysia.

Yet, you accused me of lying, wrongly, as usual, in this very post of yours.

You should learn to take a look at a mirror and consult some reliable history books to salvage your reputation, if you had any.

Indonesia lost the Konfrontasi because Indonesia was weak, not strong.

Yes, you are lying and lying and has been debunked several times. I dont like to debate like girl in other points as you keep debating for the sake of winning the argument, even if it is already very clear that you are wrong, but for this particular fact I need to correct your statement.

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Look, there is no way Indonesia got defeat during Konfrontasi. It is a change of government between Soekarno into Soeharto that end Indonesian aggression.

To be clear, the war is ended because Soeharto has different opinion about that Indonesia military aggression policy. Indonesian Armed Force is actually dissagree with Soekarno Confrontation policy.

And once again you tried to manipulate the fact as if it is Indonesia vs Malaya (Singapore+Malaysia). The war is actually between Indonesia vs British/Australia/Malaysia+Singapore (Malaya)/New Zealand.

Even during that time Indonesia was also want to have another front against India to take their Andaman islands to help Pakistan and get more territory in the process.

1612622061021.png

 
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schuimpjes

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To be clear, the war is ended because Soeharto has different opinion about that Indonesia military aggression policy.
Yup, it's right. Even Indonesia's Viet Cong (my own term for communist guerillas that were trained by Indonesia) was punched also by Indonesia in the time of Harto. Pak Luhut also the one that fought against them.
 

Indos

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Yup, it's right. Even Indonesia's Viet Cong (my own term for communist guerillas that were trained by Indonesia) was punched also by Indonesia in the time of Harto. Pak Luhut also the one that fought against them.

During Soeharto regime there is a reverse of policy. Soeharto actually send Indonesia special force to help Malaysia fight their communist guerilla in Kalimantan island (Borneo) that only can be ended in 1990.
 

Indos

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This is from Malaysian media, Borneo Post.

The tide turned however, things began to sour for the CCO (Clandestine Communist Organisation- Malaysia) when Suharto took power in Indonesia in 1965.

Suharto did not share his predecessor’s vision, and launched a mopping up operation against the communists and their supporters in Indonesia.

It was just a matter of time before the CCO would be targetted.

Suharto’s acceptance of the federation of Malaysia meant the safe haven for the CCO in Kalimantan had disappeared overnight.

Liew revealed Suharto actually sent a letter to the CCO with an ultimatum that they laid down arms and returned to Malaysia or disarmed and stayed on in Indonesia or the Indonesian army would attack and eliminate the CCO.


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Indonesia under Soeharto also help Malaysia by sending our elite force Kopassus to crush the Communist rebellion in Malaysia. Together with Malaysia, they ended the Communist rebellion in Borneo part of Malaysia in 1990.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_insurgency_in_Malaysia_(1968–1989)

This story about Indonesia Kopassus Operation in Borneo to crush the communist rebel in Sabah and Sarawak from the commander who lead the operation

https://surabaya.tribunnews.com/201...andi-yudha-kopassus-misinya-tak-terikat-hukum
 

Xenon54

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Then we have a genocidal military dictatorship on one side whilst the other an insignificant superficial goverment who allows it all to happen. Point still stands. No good sides here, not one where we can collectively get behind to oppose them atleast.
She is a Nobel Peace laureate btw but that honor didnt help her to raise her voice when military was genociding the rohyingas.
Not only was she silent she even made suppotive statements while it was happening, she can rest in hell for all i care.
 

R4duga

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One of the pillars of ASEAN foreign policy is noninterference in the internal affairs of member states. However, if Indonesia is indeed the regional leader in ASEAN as member @Indos would have us believe, all other ASEAN members should follow Indonesia's lead and thus, Indonesia could have used its supposed geopolitical influence to alter the events in Myanmar to its liking.

Facts, however, tend to disagree with member @Indos.

On the two occasions cited, and in many others I have not yet cited, Indonesian influence is noted for its absence.

There is also no need to use curse words, such as fu*kton, out of nowhere and for no good reason whatsoever.

The number of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh, or in Pakistan which is not a member of ASEAN and quite geographically distant from Myanmar, exceeds the number of Rohingya refugees in Indonesia by a comfortable margin.

However, nowhere did I discuss the number of Rohingya refugees until you brought that issue up, unnecessarily.

Indonesia is noted for its absence, on at least two serious occassions in Myanmar. That defeats the claims by member @Indos about Indonesia's supposed leadership role within ASEAN.
to be honest , im actually one of the member who does not really care if "regional leader"/"regional power" are entitled to other countries other than indonesia in the region , like said such title are given/acknowledge by other and not self proclaimed , indonesia have much other problem to worried on , rather than trying to saving face or losing such title .
 

schuimpjes

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to be honest , im actually one of the member who does not really care if "regional leader"/"regional power" are titled to other countries other than indonesia in the region , like said such title are given/acknowledge by other and not self proclaimed , indonesia have much other problem to worried on , rather than trying to saving face or losing such title .
Very true
 
E

ekemenirtu

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Unfortunately, this is another fine example of erroneous reasoning by you.

Did I not write that Mr Usman and Mr Harun were hanged by Singapore(an authorities)? Why would they be hanged if not for (alleged) crimes committed by them?

That does not change a simple fact.

That Wikipedia is not a credible source of information.

I bring facts and reasoning to the table.

Apparently they hurt your ego, which is why you have repeatedly resorted to personal attacks or what can be termed ad hominem attacks. That only goes to show your standing in the eyes of neutral observers and also lurkers.



The 37 bombing by Indonesian is also reported in Singaporean mainstream and respected media.

"Three people died and 33 people were injured, in the worst of 37 attacks in Singapore by Indonesian saboteurs."


This is what I say you debate for the sake of winning the debate.
 
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ekemenirtu

Guest
Thanks for your opinions on the matter.

Just a polite reminder: I never wrote that all Indonesians were pro-Konfrontasi.

Neither did I write that all Indonesians were anti-Konfrontasi.

Huh.. Even me myself as Indonesian, I disagree with Konfrontasi. The rhetorics that was used by Soekarno was nothing but just a leftist rhetorics like Nekolim (Neo Kolonialisme), Imperialisme, and stuffs.

Indonesian Army in early 60s (in the time of Yani's leadership), was could be called as the Anti Communists and Western Minded (Many officers of the Army was educated by the US and became "pro" More to the West, not like Omar Dhani's US school that only for "technical" Not "ideological") in the time where PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) had so much influence in the country, were also against the Konfrontasi. A Yani was sent Ali Moertopo's OPSUS to created backdoor diplomacy with the Malaysia and basically said that the Army was actually not wholeheartedly to fought the Malaysian. And also don't forget widely known non-ideological (although he was also known in some political club in Jogja) Soeharto, he was often said to Soekarno "the flight can't be fly, pak. The weather is not good". Still, I can say, that the army don't want to lose their face from Soekarno, so they were still sent (not as much as gung ho Pro Soekarno air force (even little bit leftist) ) troops there to the North.

I tell you that, to make you know that not all Indonesian were Pro to that Konfrontasi.

And also about ships. My opinion, I don't know how stupid or because too nationalistic or whatever that called, we put the name Usman Harun. If I'm the one that could change that, sure I would change that, than had to open the old wound again.
 
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ekemenirtu

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You should prove that I am lying.

To do so, you should quote the statement of mine that you believe is a lie, and provide evidence from a neutral source of information confirming that that statement of mine is also a lie.

You have done none of the above.

I have to urge moderator @Test7 @Cabatli_53 and other moderators to take a look. Could any moderator kindly teach this member some manners?

I hope he does not resort to brazen allegations such as lying against another member, without any good cause or reason and without any reliable supporting evidence in favour of his accusations.


It has been recognized the world over that Indonesia lost the Konfrontasi.

Moreover, the war was initiated by Indonesia due to its opposition to the formation of the Federation of Malaysia. Republic of Singapore only came into existence in 1965, which is after the Konfrontasi had been initiated by Indonesia.

The UK, Australia and New Zealand sent troops in support of Malaysia.

There was no territorial dispute between Indonesia and either of the following:

1. Australia
2. New Zealand
3. United Kingdom

at the time of the Konfrontasi that caused the war.


It is expected that you do not bring irrelevant factoids to the discussion. Such irrelevant facts serve no purpose. Indonesia never fought a war against the Republic of India. "Intending to fight" and actually fighting a war are vastly different endeavours.



ultimately the victory of Commonwealth forces in the campaign against Indonesia.



The outcome was a text book military victory thus avoiding a British 'Vietnam' debacle.




The outcome was a text book military victory thus avoiding a British ‘Vietnam’ debacle.



Britain and its allies won a significant victory.

The result was a significant victory for Britain and its allies, reflected in Indonesian acquiescence to the new federation and regime change in Indonesia that resulted in an anti-communist and pro-Western regime under General Suharto.


Quotes from many other notable texts confirming Indonesia's decisive defeat in the Konfrontasi could also be provided, if you so desire.

My guess is the above sources already confirm a very well known fact: Indonesia lost the Konfrontasi initiated by itself.


Yes, you are lying and lying and has been debunked several times. I dont like to debate like girl in other points as you keep debating for the sake of winning the argument, even if it is already very clear that you are wrong, but for this particular fact I need to correct your statement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, there is no way Indonesia got defeat during Konfrontasi. It is a change of government between Soekarno into Soeharto that end Indonesian aggression.

To be clear, the war is ended because Soeharto has different opinion about that Indonesia military aggression policy. Indonesian Armed Force is actually dissagree with Soekarno Confrontation policy.

And once again you tried to manipulate the fact as if it is Indonesia vs Malaya (Singapore+Malaysia). The war is actually between Indonesia vs British/Australia/Malaysia+Singapore (Malaya)/New Zealand.

Even during that time Indonesia was also want to have another front against India to take their Andaman islands to help Pakistan and get more territory in the process.

View attachment 13666
 
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ekemenirtu

Guest
I want to give a verbal warning about this. I think you both have the capacity to have a respectful discussion.

I hope so, too.

However, if you or any other moderator is able to view the posts quoted by me, you would be able to view there is only one member involved in unnecessary and uncalled for name calling and ad hominem attacks.

Equating the aggressor and the aggrieved, or the perpetrator and the victim, would do your rank or this forum no good in enhancing the forum's standing or reputation.
 
E

ekemenirtu

Guest
I applaud your humble and honest assessment of Indonesia's role and influence in the region.


Indonesia, Malaysia Call for Special ASEAN Meeting on Myanmar Coup​

Tia Asmara
Jakarta
2021-02-05


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Indonesia, Malaysia Call for Special ASEAN Meeting on Myanmar Coup
Indonesian President Joko Widodo (second from left) and Malaysian Prime Minister Muhyiddin Yassin review an honor guard at the Presidential Palace in Jakarta, Feb. 5, 2021.
[Handout from Indonesian Presidential Palace/AFP]
Burmese oppose military coup with pots, pans and VPNs



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The leaders of Indonesia and Malaysia jointly called on Friday for a special meeting of Southeast Asian nations to discuss this week’s military coup in Myanmar, saying this was a matter of concern for the region.

Indonesian President Joko “Jokowi” Widodo and Malaysian Prime Minister Muhyiddin Yassin said they had instructed their foreign ministers to speak with the chair of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations about convening a meeting of the bloc’s top diplomats. Their joint statement was the strongest to date on the situation in Myanmar from top government leaders of ASEAN states.

“We are concerned about political developments in Myanmar and we hope that political differences can be resolved in accordance with applicable laws,” the two leaders said after they held talks in Jakarta, where Muhyiddin was making his first trip as PM since his unelected government came to power nearly a year ago.

...
...

A week later, on the following Friday, the 12th of February, 2021,

1. No such meeting has been convened by ASEAN on the coup in Myanmar.

2. No visible Indonesian influence on ASEAN members, or beyond, has been observed in altering the course of events in Myanmar.

At least two such notable events are the anti-Rohingya pogroms/genocide and the coup in Myanmar.

In contrast, an external player like the United States, that does not belong to the ASEAN region has begun by ramping up sanctions on the Burmese/Myanmese military.


US Slaps Sanctions on Myanmar in Response to Military Coup​

yellen speaking while wearing a purple coat

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen (Alex Wong/Getty Images)
Thursday, 11 February 2021 01:16 PM









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The United States on Thursday imposed sanctions on Myanmar's acting president and several other military officers and warned of more sanctions to come as Washington seeks to punish those it deems responsible for the Myanmar coup.
The move blacklisted those who played a "leading role in the overthrow of Burma's democratically elected government," the Treasury Department said in a statement, targeting eight individuals, including the defense and home affairs ministers, three companies in the jade and gems sector, and updating sanctions on the top two military officials.
President Joe Biden on Wednesday approved an executive order for new sanctions on those responsible for the Feb. 1 military coup in Myanmar, also known as Burma, that ousted the elected government of veteran democracy campaigner, Aung San Suu Kyi.

"The February 1 coup was a direct assault on Burma's transition to democracy and the rule of law," Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said in the statement.





Myanmar sanctions: US identifies acting president and defense minister​

US sanctions have been imposed on Army General Min Aung Hlaing and Defense Minister General Mya Tun Oo, among others. Europe has joined the condemnation while General Hlaing has ordered civil servants to return to work.



Demonstrators display placards during a protest against the military coup
Protests in Myanmar started nearly a week ago
The United States imposed sanctions on Myanmar's acting president and several other military officers on Thursday, warning that their actions could result in more economic punishment as Washington reacts to the country's military coup.
On Wednesday, US President Joe Biden issued an executive order keeping Myanmar's generals from accessing $1 billion (€825 million) in assets held in the US, adding that specific targets of the sanctions would be identified later in the week. Those targets have now been identified.
Army chief General Min Aung Hlaing, who now holds legislative, judicial and executive powers in Myanmar, has been subjected to the embargo, along with military leaders in the new cabinet such as Defense Minister General Mya Tun Oo. Three gem exporting companies controlled by Myanmar's military have also been targeted.

'Military must relinquish power'​

Myanmar has been witnessing anti-coup protests, condemning the removal of civilian leader Aung San Suu Kyi, for six straight days, and the unrest is expected to continue on Friday.
"We are also prepared to take additional action should Burma's military not change course," Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said, using Myanmar's former name.
"If there is more violence against peaceful protesters, the Burmese military will find that today's sanctions are just the first," she said.
Biden had earlier called on the military to release democratic political leaders and activists, adding "the military must relinquish power."












to be honest , im actually one of the member who does not really care if "regional leader"/"regional power" are entitled to other countries other than indonesia in the region , like said such title are given/acknowledge by other and not self proclaimed , indonesia have much other problem to worried on , rather than trying to saving face or losing such title .
 

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