TR Casual Discussion TOGG - Türkiye's Automotive Joint Venture Group

[Lool]

Btw, does anyone know whether Togg is planniing to produce diesel cars or will they go fully electric?

 

[dBSPL]

Btw, does anyone know whether Togg is planniing to produce diesel cars or will they go fully electric?

Only electric. Togg will never produce gasoline/diesel vehicles. Behind the Togg initiative are giant investors who have been in the automotive business for decades. There are 2 main motivations for the creation of the Togg brand: the first is to create a pure-bred electric vehicle brand, and the second is to enable Turkiye to take part in this competition with its own brand while the world is undergoing this transformation.

 

[godel44]

Well TOGG is not a bad project but if the price will be same with the other cars in the same segment, why bother to buy one? Most of the population can not afford it anyway.

You would buy it for economic reasons. I have seen a lot of total cost of ownership calculations for Tesla where it turns out that the initial premium you pay for the car itself is offset by the profit you make on electricity vs oil. And that was before the spike of oil prices. If TOGG is actually priced at a similar point as non-electric cars, it's a no-brainer as there is no initial premium and it's all profit after buying the car. Not to mention all the financial credit advantages that are going to be rolled out.

I hope we can expand the domestic electric vehicle portfolio quickly. There should be an as-cheap-as-possible electric car (maybe with only one or two seats) as well as commercial transportation vehicles, tractors, lorries, and TIRs and so on. The increased transportation cost due to oil is what's primarily causing the inflation in many essential goods like food. Replacing oil with domestically manufactured renewable electricity is one of the best things you can do for inflation and the economy as a whole.

 

[Rodeo]

The video you've been waiting for <>

It will be an incredibly tough job to speed the line up. There are just too many processes and the line can only go as fast as its slowest piece. You speed up, some part of the line will burst, you investigate, solve, validate and then increase the speed a bit more and repeat. Reiterate this hundreds of time before you reach your production target. It's a major undertaking and needs awful amount of engineering hours. Too many things that can go wrong, and will go wrong. You have to solve them in a timely manner or else you'll be burning millions every hour.

The essence of the post is TOGG needs more engineers. The hard part begins now. Car manufacturing is probably the most complex engineering problem to have on the planet.

"It's relatively easy to make a prototype but extremely difficult to mass manufacture a vehicle reliably at scale. Even for rocket science, it's probably a factor of 10 harder to design a manufacturing system for a rocket than to design the rocket. For cars it's maybe 100 times harder to design the manufacturing system than the car itself."

Elon Musk

 

[Xenon54]

You would buy it for economic reasons. I have seen a lot of total cost of ownership calculations for Tesla where it turns out that the initial premium you pay for the car itself is offset by the profit you make on electricity vs oil. And that was before the spike of oil prices. If TOGG is actually priced at a similar point as non-electric cars, it's a no-brainer as there is no initial premium and it's all profit after buying the car. Not to mention all the financial credit advantages that are going to be rolled out.

I hope we can expand the domestic electric vehicle portfolio quickly. There should be an as-cheap-as-possible electric car (maybe with only one or two seats) as well as commercial transportation vehicles, tractors, lorries, and TIRs and so on. The increased transportation cost due to oil is what's primarily causing the inflation in many essential goods like food. Replacing oil with domestically manufactured renewable electricity is one of the best things you can do for inflation and the economy as a whole.

The EV infrastructure in Turkey is nowhere near good enough to consider an electric car as main car since long distances will be impossible without sufficient amount of charging stations.
Apart from that was there any mentioning of service stations for those cars? I as an owner would want to have a service station close to my place in case something breaks which certainly will be the case for the early adopters.

Even tesla after a decade of experience has quality issues so havbing a service station and capable mechanics close by is a must for most people to consider it.

 

[dBSPL]

It will be an incredibly tough job to speed the line up. There are just too many processes and the line can only go as fast as its slowest piece. You speed up, some part of the line will burst, you investigate, solve, validate and then increase the speed a bit more and repeat. Reiterate this hundreds of time before you reach your production target. It's a major undertaking and needs awful amount of engineering hours. Too many things that can go wrong, and will go wrong. You have to solve them in a timely manner or else you'll be burning millions every hour.

The essence of the post is TOGG needs more engineers. The hard part begins now. Car manufacturing is probably the most complex engineering problem to have on the planet.

"It's relatively easy to make a prototype but extremely difficult to mass manufacture a vehicle reliably at scale. Even for rocket science, it's probably a factor of 10 harder to design a manufacturing system for a rocket than to design the rocket. For cars it's maybe 100 times harder to design the manufacturing system than the car itself."

Elon Musk

A total of 5 different classes of vehicles will be produced until 2030: C Segment SUV, C Segment Sedan, C Segment Hatchback, MPV and B Segment SUV. Right now we are only evaluating the first model, even its pilot production. The Togg initiative was initially going to start production with a model with a price range accessible to everyone, but probably after market research, it was decided to start with the C segment.

Regarding the B segment vehicle, it is aimed to put this vehicle on the road around 2025-26 and the price range to be within everyone's reach. In addition to being a lower segment, the local content will be around 70%, unlike the C segment SUV, which is currently in production. This vehicle will probably constitute the most important part of Togg's annual production capacity once production starts.

Starting production with the C segment is probably related to the fact that this segment has the main market share in electric vehicles at the moment. However, a 400 horsepower vehicle and costing around 1 million is not a vehicle that many people in the country can prefer or afford. And probably, need a couple years to be expected that electric vehicles services and fast-charging stations will become widespread. The 2023 production target for C-segment SUVs is 17,000-18,000 vehicles. This figure may exceed 20K the following year. But the B segment will probably start production with a capacity of over 50K per year.

Long story short: Everything is still under construction in Togg. Over the next 10 years, capacity will continue to increase, the machinery park will expand and new sections will be commissioned. Elections, unnecessary public pressure, and many other reasons ensure that every phase of the project, which is still in pilot production, is very much on the agenda, both positively and negatively.

*

The other issue that is not talked about much is parts suppliers. Many global brands already have Turkish manufacturers in their supply chain. The Turkish automotive industry will also become a parts supplier for electric vehicles. Many companies starting with Togg will also become suppliers of European automotive manufacturers in the future.

 

[what]

Karakas is certainly and expert in the industry and I'm sure that they have brought tons of experienced engineers and managers into the company, but Tesla did so too and it took them years to perfect the manufacturing process. Fingers crossed, I hope that the investors have the capital and will to pull through. It will take years of capital and effort to make it work and to build a brand.

 

[Zafer]

A video that will upset many trolls on social media who have been tirelessly saying that the factory does not exist and that there is no production since days:

I can hear them say "What can a few workers make, this factory is joke".

 

[bisbis]

What can a few workers make, this factory is "joke".

So these cats will definitely say "This liver is dirty".

 

[TheInsider]

TOGG factory will produce 175000 cars per year when it reaches maximum capacity. TOGG will be priced competitively vs internal combustion cars in the same segment. TOGG will switch to locally produced batteries from 2025 and will use Farasis GEN4 batteries which will be produced with local raw materials. There is also a project for an electrical engine for TOGG it is running in parallel.

 

[bisbis]

The EV infrastructure in Turkey is nowhere near good enough to consider an electric car as main car since long distances will be impossible without sufficient amount of charging stations.
Apart from that was there any mentioning of service stations for those cars? I as an owner would want to have a service station close to my place in case something breaks which certainly will be the case for the early adopters.

Even tesla after a decade of experience has quality issues so havbing a service station and capable mechanics close by is a must for most people to consider it.

I'm sure South Koreans for Hyundai and Japanese for Toyota experienced these concerns about a newly established brand years ago. But despite all kinds of negativity, they patiently supported their brands and brought them to these days.

 

[bisbis]

Togg's own brand charging stations are currently being installed on the determined intercity main arteries.

There are companies that have applied for a license for many domestic charging stations, such as Vestel. So I don't think there will be any problem with charging.

As for the service, I think that this issue is currently being studied and the necessary infrastructure is about to be created.
Anyway, the only difference in an electric vehicle is the battery and engine part, namely the electrical work. Body, tires, front layout are the same.
For this reason, even if certain places such as local auto services, automobile repair shops are agreed and training is given to these places, this issue is resolved. I don't think you need a big investment.

 

[Zafer]

Togg's own brand charging stations are currently being installed on the determined intercity main arteries.

There are companies that have applied for a license for many domestic charging stations, such as Vestel. So I don't think there will be any problem with charging.

As for the service, I think that this issue is currently being studied and the necessary infrastructure is about to be created.
Anyway, the only difference in an electric vehicle is the battery and engine part, namely the electrical work. Body, tires, front layout are the same.
For this reason, even if certain places such as local auto services, automobile repair shops are agreed and training is given to these places, this issue is resolved. I don't think you need a big investment.

54 companies have been licensed to build charging stations so far to be precise and probably counting too.

 

[Tornadoss]

I'm sure South Koreans for Hyundai and Japanese for Toyota experienced these concerns about a newly established brand years ago. But despite all kinds of negativity, they patiently supported their brands and brought them to these days.

Hyundai started with cheap cars which it citizens can afford, TOGG didn't go in this direction.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Hyundai started with cheap cars which it citizens can afford, TOGG didn't go in this direction.

...and it's the right decision.

 

[Rodeo]

...and it's the right decision.

It may sound counter-intuitive but producing cheaper cars are much harder than producing premium cars. TOGG is following Tesla's path in this regard. After having sufficient experience in manufacturing, having the capital, mature supply chain, perfected quality control, and hundreds(if not thousands) of engineers who are experts in designing and maintaining a highly-automated manufacturing system, only then you could venture that path and take advantage of the economies of scale. If you do it before you're ready you'd be burning hundreds of millions of dollars for nothing.

However, I'm not claiming selling premium cars are risk-free. If you can't induce enough demand with your high-price point, you're dead.

 

[dBSPL]

Hyundai started with cheap cars which it citizens can afford, TOGG didn't go in this direction.

The B segment vehicle will arrive in 2026/27. Togg will also produce low budget electric vehicles, but they started the first production with the C segment.

Hyundai is a very successful brand on a global scale. Step by step, they have broken all prejudices. Today, they have become one of the world's leading innovative automobile companies.

Among the very successful things they have done in recent years, there is one that has one of the most extraordinary designs I have seen in recent years. Referencing the Pony Coupe, the Rolling Lab-designed N Vision 74 could indeed be the birth of a new legend. Not only the seductiveness of the design, but also the many innovative approaches it offers to the high-performance vehicle class is a masterpiece that shows how far Hyundai has come over the years.

***

Naturally, the launch of the Togg SUV also put the Devrim car in the spotlight. Because Togg is actually presented as the continuation of an unfinished story.

However, there are other legends in our automotive industry history. One of them is the country's first sports car, Eralp Noyan-designed STC-16. Inspired by the Supermarine Spitfire, this sports car undoubtedly has an important place in our automotive history and is still one of the most romantic objects of automobile enthusiasts.

If TOGG, following the C-X Coupe, reinterprets the Anadol STC-16 as a fully electric vehicle, just like Hyundai did over N Vision 74, this will certainly make a significant contribution to brand perception. And I claim that the buyers of this prestige model are already ready.

 

[dBSPL]

PEUGEOT e-2008s, one of Togg's possible competitors and offered for sale with a price of 900.000 TL, were sold out in a short time.

Wallbox gift
20,000 TL free battery recharge
50 kWh battery
136 hp
324 km range
80% charge in 30 minutes

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588924701946318849

Right now, those who want to buy this vehicle have to wait in the order queue for months. Also, Hakkı Alkan forgot that the e-2008 is a B-SUV vehicle. So they are not in the same class. If Togg enters at this price level, those who really want to buy it will have a hard time finding one.

 

[bisbis]

Hyundai started with cheap cars which it citizens can afford, TOGG didn't go in this direction.

Togg also started production from the SUV class, which is the best-selling class. This is a different method to sell a lot of automobiles.

 

[Xenon54]

I'm sure South Koreans for Hyundai and Japanese for Toyota experienced these concerns about a newly established brand years ago. But despite all kinds of negativity, they patiently supported their brands and brought them to these days.

I am pretty sure the Japanese and Koreans already had a sufficient Petrol infrastructure before establishing their brands.