Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Combat-Master]

No real alternatives. There was talk about Su-35. But that would be a maintenance nightmare and even bigger compatibility nightmare.

Not really a maintenance nightmare, with the F-4s being taken out of service and does not have any parts compatible with F-16. There's enough capacity for the maintenance engineers to move on to a new platform. Compatibility depends - Turkey now has its own data links and IFF systems in place - I think Russia would be over the moon for NATO compliant systems being added to their jets.

 

[Nutuk]

No real alternatives. There was talk about Su-35. But that would be a maintenance nightmare and even bigger compatibility nightmare.

With alternatives I should express myself better.

I did not mean alternative foreign fighter jets, there it is not worth to face the logistical nightmare to introduce Su-35 / eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen.

I meant what is our alternative to upgrade the F16's with Ozgur project on our own.

If fighter jets have passed a certain age you do not need consent of the respective country anymore. We upgraded F4's, F5's, C-130 and cobra helicopter without US consent before. We are doing it with the F16blk 30's.

Strangely no any defense journalist ask ever these questions to SSB Ismail Demir for a clear answer when we are free to upgrade our blk 40 and blk 50 on our own.

 

[Azeri441]

With alternatives I should express myself better.

I did not mean alternative foreign fighter jets, there it is not worth to face the logistical nightmare to introduce Su-35 / eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen.

I meant what is our alternative to upgrade the F16's with Ozgur project on our own.

If fighter jets have passed a certain age you do not need consent of the respective country anymore. We upgraded F4's, F5's, C-130 and cobra helicopter without US consent before. We are doing it with the F16blk 30's.

Strangely no any defense journalist ask ever these questions to SSB Ismail Demir for a clear answer when we are free to upgrade our blk 40 and blk 50 on our own.

Ozgur project is nowhere near ready, Block 70 upgrades can start right now + additional aircraft to push number of F-16s to near 300, wish Turkey didn't buy the S-400s in the first place and had 100+ F-35As and F-35Bs

 

[BordoEnes]

Ozgur project is nowhere near ready, Block 70 upgrades can start right now + additional aircraft to push number of F-16s to near 300, wish Turkey didn't buy the S-400s in the first place and had 100+ F-35As and F-35Bs

The S-400's were objectively a terrible choice to make. You could have gone many other routes to stick it to the Americans. I still stand by that the perfect solution would be to sell them to Azerbaijan for a friendly price. Much of us have a far to idealistic view of our domestic programs, whom will take many years to mature. The Viper upgrades are really good additions, but purchasing new planes altogether is just humiliating. Those should have been F-35's.

 

[Nutuk]

Ozgur project is nowhere near ready, Block 70 upgrades can start right now + additional aircraft to push number of F-16s to near 300, wish Turkey didn't buy the S-400s in the first place and had 100+ F-35As and F-35Bs

On the contrary, Ozgur project is ready and prototype F16-Ozgur has been on tests for a long time (only the AESA radar of Aselsan is / was not ready yet)

It is not for nothing that 35 blok 30's get their structural upgrade prior to serial özgür upgrade

 

[Manomed]

Not really a maintenance nightmare, with the F-4s being taken out of service and does not have any parts compatible with F-16. There's enough capacity for the maintenance engineers to move on to a new platform. Compatibility depends - Turkey now has its own data links and IFF systems in place - I think Russia would be over the moon for NATO compliant systems being added to their jets.

Even the basic F-16s can outperform that flying garbage named su-35

 

[Azeri441]

On the contrary, Ozgur project is ready and prototype F16-Ozgur has been on tests for a long time (only the AESA radar of Aselsan is / was not ready yet)

It is not for nothing that 35 blok 30's get their structural upgrade prior to serial özgür upgrade

Integration of AESA radar alone can take years, if Ozgur project was anywhere close to completion there is no way Air Force would request so many aircraft to be upgraded to Block 70 variant.

 

[Azeri441]

The S-400's were objectively a terrible choice to make. You could have gone many other routes to stick it to the Americans. I still stand by that the perfect solution would be to sell them to Azerbaijan for a friendly price. Much of us have a far to idealistic view of our domestic programs, whom will take many years to mature. The Viper upgrades are really good additions, but purchasing new planes altogether is just humiliating. Those should have been F-35's.

There was also no real reason to stick it to Americans, Turkey claims US didn't want to provide ToT for PAC-3 but its not like Turkey got ToT for S-400s, as someone from a country that has dealt with Russia for a long time, Russia is 1000 times worse than US.

 

[Nutuk]

That's why I like to have a clear answer on whether our blk 50's still require US permission, if yes till when? Seems that nobody can answer this for sure and nobody strangely is asking Ismail Demir in all those interviews he is giving.

 

[the]

The S-400's were objectively a terrible choice to make. You could have gone many other routes to stick it to the Americans. I still stand by that the perfect solution would be to sell them to Azerbaijan for a friendly price. Much of us have a far to idealistic view of our domestic programs, whom will take many years to mature. The Viper upgrades are really good additions, but purchasing new planes altogether is just humiliating. Those should have been F-35's.

Its no longer a possibility, Turkey has lost the opportunity to host the F35 maintenance hub of Europe and Turkish firms have lost revenue from no longer being able to supply over 900 parts. I completely agree that F35's were the perfect choice.

imo 8- 10 billion would go much further if it were spent on speeding up indigenous programmes - but once again with the current situation, the only way of having US firms supply engines would be to purchase US equipment. Like they say, "money talks".

Its going to be a hard pill to swallow. Ultimately, the US will accept the purchase of F16s + upgrades, allowing for other US firms to supply engines for Hurjet, Tfx etc. But significant cracks between the US - Turkey relationship will remain.

 

[the]

There was also no real reason to stick it to Americans, Turkey claims US didn't want to provide ToT for PAC-3 but its not like Turkey got ToT for S-400s, as someone from a country that has dealt with Russia for a long time, Russia is 1000 times worse than US.

I 100% agree with you, afterall Russia is the one that actively bombs Turkish soldiers, in addition to cooperating with Assad and YPG.

According to Ismail Demir, the conditions on the purchase of the Patriot system were far worse than not getting ToT. For example, Turkey would not be allowed to test the system during times of peace.

Further, issues between the two countries do not stop at the S400s. 1) Issue of USA supporting YPG over its NATO ally. 2) USA's refusal to hand over Fethullah Gülen 3) US refusal to accept the status quo in the Eastern Mediterranean. 4) Turkey's 'active role in Libya'.

 

[Nilgiri]

Is there any hint/source etc as to when a decision will be taken on this matter.

i.e by year-end 2021....or it will stretch into 2022?

 

[LegionnairE]

When are people going to realize that I'm always right?

Sigh...

Some people were saying that this news was bullshit. Where are they?

What happened?

Also which one of you deleted my thread?

 

[LegionnairE]

Our dependence on the US will continue until our national platforms such as the TfX, Hürjet are ready and our critical radar technologies are developed and this dependency is used by the US according to their own political needs. That's why these projects are so important and their success has become a must.

I was expecting a Eurofighter or a Gripen purchase.

Getting kicked out of the F-35 program and then asking for F-16s is pathetic. It makes us look like a joke.

And to think that our US dependency will end with F-110 powered TFX is... I don't know man.

This is why I left this forum. No vision here, no critical thinking. Just a circlejerk.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I hope US dont accept and Turkey go for SU 35 supermaneuverable aircraft.
US is worst enemy of human kind , its zionist global devil that kills civilians and surpress coutries that dont accept to became his puppets puts economic sanctions as they want etc etc . Its nr 1 armament of Israeli and now arming YPG terrorists .
F 16 or any other aircraft has no chance with SU 35 dogfight , BVR missile is another story .
Imagine Su 35 with Turkish AESA radan amd avionics+other systems
SU is aslo cheap and Turkey can buy 150 of them with 6-8 Billion

--On 20 August 2019, two Russian Air Force Su-35Ss, operating from the Khmeimim Air Base, intercepted two Turkish Air Force F-16s over the southern Idlib and forced them to leave the Syrian airspace.[102] On 26 August 2019, two Russian Su-35Ss intercepted an Israeli Air Force aircraft over the Mediterranean Sea preparing for a second wave of attacks on Syria.[103] Russian Su-35Ss again intercepted several Israeli aircraft over southern Syria on 10 September 2019 and prevented them from carrying out airstrikes.[104] Another interception allegedly occurred on 19 September 2019, when two Russian Su-35Ss intercepted Israeli aircraft preparing for airstrikes on suburbs of Damascus.[105] On 15 October 2019, a Turkish F-16 fighter was intercepted by Russian Su-35Ss and forced to retreat as it was attempting to bomb the Syrian Democratic Forces's headquarters in Manbij.[106] On 12 November 2019, Russian Su-35Ss intercepted an Israeli fighter during airstrikes on Damascus.[107] On 7 December 2019, several Israeli aircraft were intercepted by Russian Su-35Ss and forced to retreat during an attempt to bomb the T-4 Airbase

 

[Anastasius]

I 100% agree with you, afterall Russia is the one that actively bombs Turkish soldiers, in addition to cooperating with Assad and YPG.

According to Ismail Demir, the conditions on the purchase of the Patriot system were far worse than not getting ToT. For example, Turkey would not be allowed to test the system during times of peace.

Further, issues between the two countries do not stop at the S400s. 1) Issue of USA supporting YPG over its NATO ally. 2) USA's refusal to hand over Fethullah Gülen 3) US refusal to accept the status quo in the Eastern Mediterranean. 4) Turkey's 'active role in Libya'.

Might not be true but I have heard before that Turkey's purchase of S-400 was basically blackmail by Russia to avoid certain details coming out about the government and to avoid Turkey having to enter a full-on war against Russia in Syria.

It honestly makes more sense to me now than whatever excuses various ministers keep putting out there.

 

[Anastasius]

I was expecting a Eurofighter or a Gripen purchase.

Getting kicked out of the F-35 program and then asking for F-16s is pathetic. It makes us look like a joke.

And to think that our US dependency will end with F-110 powered TFX is... I don't know man.

This is why I left this forum. No vision here, no critical thinking. Just a circlejerk.

US dependency won't end with TF-X because Turkey has no experience in that area.

I don't know why so many on this forum think that Turkey just needs to hold out long enough to start developing its own native systems. By the time the TF-X comes out, it will still be heavily outdated and Turkey will STILL be playing catch-up.

Swallow your goddamn pride for once, it's considered one of the seven major sins for a reason, it leads to nothing but ruin.

 

[Xenon54]

Ozgur project is nowhere near ready, Block 70 upgrades can start right now + additional aircraft to push number of F-16s to near 300, wish Turkey didn't buy the S-400s in the first place and had 100+ F-35As and F-35Bs

I still believe Turkey wouldnt have gotten F-35 even if it didnt buy s-400, the FP in the last decade was a huge mess and too many lobbies working against Turkey within US

 

[LegionnairE]

I still believe Turkey wouldnt have gotten F-35 even if it didnt buy s-400, the FP in the last decade was a huge mess and too many lobbies working against Turkey within US

We were literally days away from receiving them when the S400 deliveries began.

Everyone knew what would happen.
Our government was just too stupid to see it, even after taking deliveries of S400 they kept arguing that Greece has S300s therefore we should get F35s

 

[Xenon54]

The same lobbies were as active through the last two decades, but we still carry on with joint projects signed not too long ago. S-400 purchase was a crooked decision on our behalf, disregarding any likely consequences.

We have been making similar (but not as significant) mistakes in our decisions as we fail to foresee future needs. Prior to T70 deal in 2011, there was an option of 12 navalized choppers in the batch, crossed off of the deal by decision-makers. Now we are looking for navalized utility helicopters for TCG Anadolu, with only limited options available. That is if we could overcome the embargoes.

Dont get me wrong i do believe that buying S-400 was a stupid decision, just a useless and expensive political deal for the status in idlib.
I just think that S-400 is not the only reason as its being made of.
Regardless, military is just one field that this incompetent goverment ruined in Turkey, its will be hard to fix all their BS after they are gone.