Turkey to build its future with Europe

Deliorman

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Of course. But your looking at it from 2020. The reasons you cited were what drove UK public to vote for Brexit. But, but look at it from turn of the millenium. There is Turkey. Been a integral and critical part of NATO. Now look at mob of poor recently freed Warsaw Pact countries. The list is long. Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Czechia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria whose collective population matches Turkey and the number of migrants EE produced matches or is even greater than the figure you gave for Turkey. Do you know the total cost handed out to all these ex-Warsaw Pact countries?

All these were placed in front of Turkey while these got preferantial treatment. I know the reason and so do you I suspect. That reason is partly historical. Everytime I pass a pub in my city called 'The Turks Head' alludes to that.


Didn’t I already wrote you that Western Europeans don’t want more/any Turks in their countries? I did.
The same way that many Turks (due to stereotypes, history and personal beliefs and experiences) also don’t want any Christians and even Somalis, Syrians, Pakistanis, Afghans in Turkey too. Being a racist and a chauvinist is a normal thing and I admit that to a certain extent I am also one. But at least I am honest enough to not hide it and not to expect any sympathy from the enemies. We hate them and they hate us so why should we get offended that Poland, Estonia or Romania was taken in the EU while Turkey wasn’t? Let them take in whoever they want to... the World is big and full of opportunities.
 

Kaptaan

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Didn’t I already wrote you that Western Europeans don’t want more/any Turks in their countries? I did.
The same way that many Turks (due to stereotypes, history and personal beliefs and experiences) also don’t want any Christians and even Somalis, Syrians, Pakistanis, Afghans in Turkey too. Being a racist and a chauvinist is a normal thing and I admit that to a certain extent I am also one. But at least I am honest enough to not hide it and not to expect any sympathy from the enemies. We hate them and they hate us so why should we get offended that Poland, Estonia or Romania was taken in the EU while Turkey wasn’t? Let them take in whoever they want to... the World is big and full of opportunities.
Mmmm ..... fair point.
 

Nilgiri

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Who is the pioneer of populism? Hitler is turning in his grave right now. 😂

I'd argue Hitler was not really populist in the conventional sense. He (and his party) was firmly rejected for a good decade or so by the German public (and trust me they tried their darndest to be popular with them both conventionally and unconventionally)....their core message was the same back then as it was later.

What changed is they were able to infiltrate, coerce and use violent mobs on political opponents (too often the focus is only on the brownshirt vs reds....but it was far far more than that, those were just the most brutal open-air fights visibly...ironically over the same kind of extremist thinking base of ppl at large if you look at how factions somewhat seamlessly switched).

One of many examples was the final German parliamentarian (of SPD I think - party that still exists today and come to power under Shroeder etc...but I forgot the guys name) that was doggedly against Hitler/NSDAP but he was coerced in some mysterious way to relent and vote for mandate hindenburg was trying to establish in name of stability (this is a long subject to get into)...given the 2nd round of economic calamity from the depression (largely originated in the US and fuelled by debt-recall in foreign countries like Germany)

It was all mostly reactionary driven and it changed to pseudo-populism to some level only afterwards (1932 afterwards I mean), when the actual levers of economic policy, institutions and mass media could be totally subverted and then utilised to be made to drive a more traditional populist front (mostly to help disguise the earlier root agenda/goals). But really it was not populist in its genesis and larger approach at all....neither social populism or economic populism. Elements it took on of that, well there is no easy way to reference the genuine popularity among the people as the means to measure that were all controlled/subverted at that point by an extreme authoritarianism.

This is also what allows for German public at large to not be suddenly radicalised to such extreme level in just a few short years....and then magically flipped off/reset again in 1945.

Genuine root populists (given a democracy need exist in first place for this term) you would have to do an analysis of 19th Century US and UK....whigs vs 19th century dems in the US (as to what was even populist back then compared to now) and also different kind of whigs found in the UK vs tories vs liberals.

In 20th century non-democratic authoritarians/totalitarians, I would actually say Mao was the largest innovator overall of populism (he saw and harnessed what the peasants numbers and desires were) and Lenin to some degree too....as the institutions + reverse inertia (against populism) were respectively not well-established and low in societal energy....so populism actually had a huge ripe sweetspot condition to flourish in first place (often called a revolution), unlike the case with Hitler/NSDAP as they had to work their way into existing power corridors in a very anti-populist (few ppl involved) method.

Sorry to go off topic a bunch....it was to also help air out some matters as they rest in my head on this topic.
 

Agha Sher

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The future of Turkey will only belong with Europe if Europe becomes Turkey 😏 better get the mehmetciks ready.
 

Bogeyman 

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Dude, having a big mouth that today spits and tomorrow licks and spinning around like a belly dancer doesn’t make you a respected person/politician. Nobody asks Erdogan to be Europe’s or America’s puddle but it’s pathetic one day to do stupid things (like the Pastor Brunson saga and putting Berat as a minister of finance) and shout “Eyyyy America, Nazi Almanya, Crazy Macron... who are you?!” bu on the other to talk how we are strategic partners and throw sweet words and kisses.

Less emotional speeches and more diplomacy. A politician should be realistic and should know how to play his cards, should be thinking about mid and long term goals rather than short term gains to get some votes. Foreign policy should be built on interests and rationality rather than ideology or sectarianism.
Mate. Diplomacy has already died on July 15, 2016. We are just trying to keep a dead marriage alive. They see us as a country to be exploited. You cannot get anywhere with countries that do not want to partner with you and only want to exploit.
 

Quasar

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I am not a fan of Erdoğan this is for sure but I should say this sort of appeasement rethoric is quite pragmatic and necessary if we want to pursue our interests without being labeled as the next ''Iran'' and without giving much room for France and Greece

-normalizing our relations with Israel and Egypt may also work in our favour

-eventhough we have conflicting interest with Russia we manage to find ways to work/deal with them, easier said than done but we should find similar ways to work/deal with US
 

Saithan

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I am not a fan of Erdoğan this is for sure but I should say this sort of appeasement rethoric is quite pragmatic and necessary if we want to pursue our interests without being labeled as the next ''Iran'' and without giving much room for France and Greece

-normalizing our relations with Israel and Egypt may also work in our favour

-eventhough we have conflicting interest with Russia we manage to find ways to work/deal with them, easier said than done but we should find similar ways to work/deal with US

Exacly, I think what’s important for Turkey is that all political parties are upfront on our national values. Allowing GC into EU was a mistake, but more mistakes will be made if er do not school all politicians, on national values.
 

uzaysan

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Looks like we went back to 2007 again. Which means we wasted 13 years for nothing. And no need to say we are in worse position now. Lower gdp per capita. Lower stability. Higher population higher interest rates higher external dept and lower foreign investment

Edit: i forgot to say higher taxes and poor people
 

CAN_TR

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Erdogan should have choosed the more "diplomatic" tongue instead those useless insults which were used by the European media to feed Anti Turkish stance in Europe.
Look how Aliyev for over a month trashed one toxic Journalist after another even though Azerbaijani Army wiped the floor with their beloved Armenians, why because he knows how to talk he is smart enough to stuff their mouths with facts without using insults.

Always said it Turkey's future is neither in Europe nor Middle East we have to go our own path, neutral-rational relations. Our countries policy is based on sectarianism ideology.
 

Bogeyman 

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While the French want us to make concessions from our operations in Northern Iraq, no one should tell us the nonsense of diplomacy. All they want is that we surrender. Nobody is in love with your flirty words. Whether you say it is crazy or give it to the flower, the man will eventually see what he has got on the table.
Therefore, diplomacy is not made by distributing smiles. However, the child can be deceived.
 

Glass🚬

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Always said it Turkey's future is neither in Europe nor Middle East we have to go our own path, neutral-rational relations. Our countries policy is based on sectarianism ideology.

^This. By continuing for example the membership process ur leading Turkey into an infinite dead-lock and thats dangerous because what Turkey needs is a rational game plan for the next decades as the dynamics in the world continue to change in a very heavy way.

One of the primary weakness of Erdo is his short sightedness which will now result in his defeat in 2023. Refugees, economic policy, corruption but also such foolish endeavor as the EU-membership process are all policies which are hard to defend. If erdo was able to think rationally he would in fact end the membership process and move Turkey to a more balanced approach with the continent´s

but in the end im also thrilled to see what policies the one who will replace erdo will follow, I hope it wont be an eurocentrist because that would be again bad.
 

Madokafc

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Just to clarify I have no issues with Islam being practiced at a personal level. I have met and know some beautiful souls who draw comfort in their faith but political Islam is altogether another thing. It is when a personal faith is used to enforce on others. That is plain wrong.

There is old quote from my late ex President, he is religious leader of one the most largest Islam organization in Indonesia

All religions insist on peace. From this we might think that the religious struggle for peace is simple ... but it is not. The deep problem is that people use religion wrongly in pursuit of victory and triumph. This sad fact then leads to conflict with people who have different beliefs.
 

dani92

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Turks aren’t Christian or European. Erdogan is playing on all sides he uses secular Westernized tongue with Europe and Islamic tongue with Arabs and Muslims and turanian tongue with Hungary and turkic nations and Eurasian tongue with Russia and China
 

Saithan

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Turks aren’t Christian or European. Erdogan is playing on all sides he uses secular Westernized tongue with Europe and Islamic tongue with Arabs and Muslims and turanian tongue with Hungary and turkic nations and Eurasian tongue with Russia and China
You forgot he tries to speak nationalism too.
 
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Sinan

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Turks aren’t Christian or European. Erdogan is playing on all sides he uses secular Westernized tongue with Europe and Islamic tongue with Arabs and Muslims and turanian tongue with Hungary and turkic nations and Eurasian tongue with Russia and China
This new Europe speech had to the with the ongoing economic crisis in Turkey.

- He also said that he would reform the justice system recently, but his actions showed otherwise.
- He says, he want to normalize ties with Europe but Europe's expections from him is clear. Seperation of powers, freedom of expresion, etc.... and we know he can't do these stuff.
 
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