TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Afif]

A record 52 billion lira contract in the Turkish defense industry​

One of the record-breaking contracts of the Turkish defense industry sector was signed between ASELSAN and TAI today. The contract covers aircraft modernization.


Today, ASELSAN and TAI signed two different contracts regarding aircraft modernization. The cost of the first contract was 2,618,751,172 Turkish Liras and 132,078,069 USD; The second contract is 18,073,289,646 Turkish Liras and 1,065,303,880 US Dollars, with a total value of 20,692,040,818 Turkish Liras and 1,197,381,949 US Dollars.


It was not disclosed to which project the two contracts, whose approximate value corresponds to 52 billion Turkish Liras, are related. However, it is emphasized that an aircraft modernization project of this size may be related to the F-16 ÖZGÜR Project, which was delivered for the first time recently . Nevertheless, the exact information is expected to be announced by the Ministry of National Defense and the Presidency of Defense Industries in the future.

ÖZGÜR Project​

The ÖZGÜR Project will also be integrated into the F-16s in the Turkish Air Force inventory. Many critical missiles and pods such as GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN, GEZGİN, ATMACA, ÇAKIR, GÖKHAN, ASELPOD, EHPOD and SOM will be used in F-16s.

The avionics modernization project first applied to the F-16 Block 30 warplanes;

• National Mission Computer,
• System Interface Unit,
• Cockpit Upper Front Control Panel,
• Fuel Hydraulic Indicator, Engine Indicator Display,
• Emergency Indicator,
• National Sound Safety Device,
• National Friend - Foe Identification (IFF) System,
• Multimode Receiver,
• Inertial Navigation System,
• Interface Blanking Unit,
• It includes the Center Cockpit Display and the Color Multifunction Display integration.

On the other hand, MURAD AESA Radar, which is under development, is expected to be integrated into aircraft in the future.


@SavunmaSanayiST.com

 

[Afif]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

 

[dBSPL]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

The TAF is apparently considering operating 119 (40+79) AN/APG-83s and at least around same numbers of MURAD-AESAs on combatant fleets. So the TAF will have more AN/APG-83s than the Greek Air Force, plus an AESA radar completely inaccessible to the Greeks.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.
Greek airforce Rafale’s however, are to have the MBDA’s game changer Meteor air to air missiles. If any of them have been delivered by MBDA is not clarified yet.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

Gokdogan is an equivalent to the AIM-120 C version, at least in term of range, so nothing extraordinary here. What I want to see is Gökhan instead. This missile will be a real game changer.

 

[dBSPL]

While the Qatar squadron stationed in Konya can be used to develop tactical training and countermeasure systems and strategies against strategic air force assets in Greek hands: Greek access to the strategic assets that TR will soon be commissioning will not be available to them, nor will they have the full tactical training advantage or, in parallel, in the work of the domestic industry that TR has.

 

[Afif]

As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.

I am actually thinking about future procurements.
Both Greek air force and TurAF will probably have AIM-120 C-8 as (i read somewhere) Reytheon will only produce AIM-120 C-8/D from now on.

 

[Quasar]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.
Greek airforce Rafale’s however, are to have the MBDA’s game changer Meteor air to air missiles. If any of them have been delivered by MBDA is not clarified yet.

AIM 120 C 8 is later named AIM 120 D as we know the main difference bettwen C and D are off course range but more importantly two way data link and gps navigation I am almost certain that Gokdogan will evolve to the same direction

 

[EternalTurk]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

Just thinking the same thing my brother...lol

 

[Yasar_TR]

AN/APG-83, the SABR Scalable Agile Beam Radar is a specially developed radar that uses as much energy as it is asked for. That way its energy consumption is regulated and kept low enough so as not to be a burden on the F16’s power generation systems. It is also designed so that it can almost be a direct swap with the in house radar it is replacing.
Due to the power requirement of the Murad radar we may be encountering some difficulties especially with respect to cooling. Hence the delays. But once these hurdles are overcome, the Murad should, on paper, have much better performance than the SABR. It will have higher performance GaN modules for a start. Although we don’t know how well our engineers in Aselsan have designed it, considering the fact that SABR range is not that much ahead of the radar it is replacing (SABR is however an AESA radar and has Low Probability of Interception) , Murad should outperform the SABR by a good margin.

 

[Quasar]

AN/APG-83, the SABR Scalable Agile Beam Radar is a specially developed radar that uses as much energy as it is asked for. That way its energy consumption is regulated and kept low enough so as not to be a burden on the F16’s power generation systems. It is also designed so that it can almost be a direct swap with the in house radar it is replacing.
Due to the power requirement of the Murad radar we may be encountering some difficulties especially with respect to cooling. Hence the delays. But once these hurdles are overcome, the Murad should, on paper, have much better performance than the SABR. It will have higher performance GaN modules for a start. Although we don’t know how well our engineers in Aselsan have designed it, considering the fact that SABR range is not that much ahead of the radar it is replacing (SABR is however an AESA radar and has Low Probability of Interception) , Murad should outperform the SABR by a good margin.

is there any diffrence bettween Pratt Whitney and GE engines in regard to energy generation?

 

[Radonsider]

is there any diffrence bettween Pratt Whitney and GE engines in regard to energy generation?

No, it is not about the engine. F-16Cs use a 60kVA generator onboard

 

[Yasar_TR]

is there any diffrence bettween Pratt Whitney and GE engines in regard to energy generation?

As per @Radonsider ’s response it is to do with the electric generator.
Although @Nilgiri can answer this better.
However UAE wanted better radar on their f16s and also more raw power for the plane. Hence they have paid over 3 billion dollars for the development of f110GE132 engines to GE.

 

[Huelague]

Gokdogan is an equivalent to the AIM-120 C version, at least in term of range, so nothing extraordinary here. What I want to see is Gökhan instead. This missile will be a real game changer.

Something like Meteor missile.

 

[karakova]

Due to the power requirement of the Murad radar we may be encountering some difficulties especially with respect to cooling.

GaN is much more efficient...for the same power output it need less energy requirement and less cooling

 

[Heartbang]

I would like to use the attention this thread is getting to propose some upgrades for our F-16 ÖZGÜR program:

I think our unshackled Vipers could use the advantage of developments in our RAM paint tech, similar to "Have Glass V" paint scheme of USAF F-16's.

We should also develop a stealth weapons pod to not just enhance these stealth gains, but also house some important electronic apparatus such as a LIDAR.
This pod could also house the necessary electronics to "translate" the communication signals between NATO aircraft and Soviet weaponry and vice versa.

 

[TheInsider]

Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

Gökdoğan and Gökhan.

 

[TheInsider]

As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.
Greek airforce Rafale’s however, are to have the MBDA’s game changer Meteor air to air missiles. If any of them have been delivered by MBDA is not clarified yet.

Those Meteors are limited by Rafale's unimpressive radar.

 

[Afif]

Those Meteors are limited by Rafale's unimpressive radar.

My thoughts also. But here is an interesting perspective

Your ability to detect, track or engage low RCS targets depends primarily on the signal transmission strength of your TRMs (in turn determined by power output & substrate material) & on your signal-processing capabilities (back-end electronics & software). There are more than enough TRMs to provide the mainlobe with all the performance that any other AESA-FCR of this generation can realistically deliver. Plus, the French have a nearly 10-year lead over the other European companies when it comes to operationalizing the AESA - so I would trust Thales' solutions wrt signal processing over Selex/Leonardo which is a fairly new-comer to the field.

Where a smaller array will hurt you however, is with regard to 1) weaker sidelobe performance, 2) lower active Field of View & 3) lower number of interleaved operations that can be performed simultaneously.

The first two disadvantages do not really manifest much in BVR engagements, rather in WVR situations. Because in BVR, Rafale relies on a vast array of passive/offboard inputs to cue the radar. This was more of an issue back when AESAs were sitting on early 4th gen jets that did not have sensor fusion. It's still an issue, though less severe, on Rafale - which is why they plan on implementing conformal tile radars around the airframe in future blocks, which should make it a considerably superior solution to having a single larger array in the nose.

The last disadvantage can indeed manifest in BVR...but given that the RBE can actively track more targets than any other FCR on a non-5th gen jet (40 targets simultaneously), it's evident that Thales has found a back-end solution that can work with the smaller front-end (active array).

If the TRM tech, power output & back-end components/software are the same, the mainlobe detection range will be the same. Like I said, the downside you will experience will happen wrt the sidelobe performance, FoV & interleaved operations capability. As in, if you have 100 TRMs you can dedicate 50 of them to Track-while-scan in look-up mode (air targets) and 25 will be left to scan in look-down, and 25 for Electronic Attack.

If you have 150 TRMs, you can dedicate 50 TRMs each for look-down & EA while still maintaining 50 for look-up TWS. Or, you can keep look-down & EA at same 25 TRM, but put 100 toward look-up TWS which should help you scan a much wider field of view, or track more targets within that FoV.

Trying to register a low RCS target by throwing more TRMs at it is a game of diminishing returns, especially as most LO/VLO are optimized against X-band. As long as sufficient number of TRMs are available to form a main lobe, adding some more isn't really gonna give a return that scales accordingly - because the power emitted by each TRM is not going to stack. What they CAN do is to increase the size of the main lobe, which like I said, helps to increase FoV.

The Gripen E AESA is however superior to the Rafale's current radar - but not because it has a slightly bigger array, but because they seem to be testing a GaN substrate for their TRMs. Which means each TRM should at least theoretically*** be able to transmit more power than current RBE-2AA's GaAs modules (GaN version is still work in progress at Thales).



*** I say theoretically because even though the GaN substrate may be able to transmit up to 5x times more power, in reality the amount of power you can transmit is determined by how much your APUs & engines can generate, and how much heat the radar's cooling system can remove efficiently. So supposing that you put the same GaN TRMs on both Gripen & Rafale, the latter with 2 x engines can always have more electrical power on tap at any given time than a single-engine jet. So even with the same radar, Rafale might be able to transmit more power and/or carry out intensive TWS for much longer periods than a Gripen.



The size of the array is determined by size of the nosecone, which in turn is informed by aerodynamics & other mission needs.

Obviously if you have an airframe with a large nosecone on hand, you're going to make the most of it. Adding more TRMs doesn't hurt, like I said it helps you do a lot more jobs simultaneously and/or achieve bigger FoVs which is important for air superiority - it just doesn't mean that a larger TRM count in of itself gives you a farther search/tracking range. It doesn't.

Bottom line being, Rafale can take just as much advantage of the Meteor's range as Gripen E can.

 

[TheInsider]

- 29 F-16 Block 50+ with CFTs
- 71 F-16 Block 50M
- 102 F-16 Block 40M
- 36 F-16 Block 30TM

We will either upgrade 79 block 40 and 50s to Viper standard and leave out 29 Block 50+ which means we will upgrade 130 fighters to Özgür standard or we will upgrade 29 Block 50+ and 50 block 40s+ block 50s to Viper standard and upgrade 159 fighters to Özgür standard. I don't see any other way.

Of course, those contracts which are valued at over 2 billion are just Aselsan's share of the project it is not the total value of the modernization.