TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

Yasar_TR

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GaN is much more efficient...for the same power output it need less energy requirement and less cooling
GaN's high power density, or its ability to dissipate heat from a small package, makes it so impressive. While GaAs has a basic power density of about 1.5 W/mm, GaN has a power density ranging from 5 to 12 W/mm.
GaN has higher electron mobility than GaAs and other semiconductors, so it has a broader amplification range. Despite typically coming in a much smaller package than GaAs, it can rapidly disperse heat to avoid burnout even at extremely high voltage levels.
Yes it is more efficient. But that means you have more heat dissipated that needs to be cooled off.
 

Nilgiri

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As per @Radonsider ’s response it is to do with the electric generator.
Although @Nilgiri can answer this better.
However UAE wanted better radar on their f16s and also more raw power for the plane. Hence they have paid over 3 billion dollars for the development of f110GE132 engines to GE.

Both engines have the same potential when it comes to electric generation onboard....as Radoninsider illustrated (its a small % in the end to run the generator and distribution etc even with more powerful radar etc).

The F110 has lately benefitted from its selection for the F-15 EX and the certification involved there given the needs of the large radar etc there.

So latest tier F-16s these days can prefer to (with any elected heavier radar and electric system demand) basically leverage (cost, time savings and availability) from the F-15EX certification done already by GE in that project that PW one doesn't have.

i.e certification already done w.r.t better generator stator wedges, diodes, better armature, better constant speed drive etc. and whatever else may have been involved regarding specifics of the F-15 EX project (w.r.t latest generator + electric supply) that F-16 can now double dip into without needing to do again (with PW).

In addition to the higher thrust the latest GE powerplant has as well of course ( ~ 32.5 vs 29.1 k lbf)
 

Rodeo

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Both engines have the same potential when it comes to electric generation onboard....as Radoninsider illustrated (its a small % in the end to run the generator and distribution etc even with more powerful radar etc).

The F110 has lately benefitted from its selection for the F-15 EX and the certification involved there given the needs of the large radar etc there.

So latest tier F-16s these days can prefer to (with any elected heavier radar and electric system demand) basically leverage (cost, time savings and availability) from the F-15EX certification done already by GE in that project that PW one doesn't have.

i.e certification already done w.r.t better generator stator wedges, diodes, better armature, better constant speed drive etc. and whatever else may have been involved regarding specifics of the F-15 EX project (w.r.t latest generator + electric supply) that F-16 can now double dip into without needing to do again (with PW).

In addition to the higher thrust the latest GE powerplant has as well of course ( ~ 32.5 vs 29.1 k lbf)
It's a bit tangent but are there any differences between F110-GE-129 engines that powers aircrafts in twin-engine configuration and single engine configuration? Any difference in dimensions, ECUs, software etc.? In essence, can the engine power an F16 if it was dismounted from an F15 and vice versa?
 

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"We will install an ASELSAN AESA radar on the Hürjet, and its nose is made accordingly. In this way, it will be the same as the F-16 radar, and we will place our missiles on it. For the hourly flight costs of the Hürjet, you can divide the average flight cost of an F-16 by 5."

Temel Kotil | TAI

via Avionot

I hope that some of these issues will be clarified at IDEF.

A huge purchase from the US, a huge contract for aircraft modernization with Aselsan, which points to a unique-domestic modernization program, on the other hand, the advancing of the Hürjet to combatant level and the KAAN program, which will have higher costs than all of them.

And these are only issues related to the combatant part.

- 29 F-16 Block 50+ with CFTs
- 71 F-16 Block 50M
- 102 F-16 Block 40M
- 36 F-16 Block 30TM

We will either upgrade 79 block 40 and 50s to Viper standard and leave out 29 Block 50+ which means we will upgrade 130 fighters to Özgür standard or we will upgrade 29 Block 50+ and 50 block 40s+ block 50s to Viper standard and upgrade 159 fighters to Özgür standard. I don't see any other way.

Of course, those contracts which are valued at over 2 billion are just Aselsan's share of the project it is not the total value of the modernization.
The Block-30s are actually very agile platforms and together with indigenous arsenal and aesa radar, they will have a serious impact on their ACM capabilities. However, I wish we had the opportunity to install indigenous computers on the Block-50+ and to perform the necessary system and weapon integrations built-in house.

With 29 indigenous F-16 with CFTs over block-50 and 40 new built Lockheed's Block-70s, a total of 69 long-range (compared to the standard F-16s) and up-to-date F-16s, i.e. about 4 squadrons, we would have gained more manageable logistics and an X factor in this group over indigenous variant. There are alternative ways to use future domestic munitions/missiles without having them certified by the US, but it would be great not to have to.
 
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Afif

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"We will install an ASELSAN AESA radar on the Hürjet, and its nose is made accordingly. In this way, it will be the same as the F-16 radar, and we will place our missiles on it. For the hourly flight costs of the Hürjet, you can divide the average flight cost of an F-16 by 5."

I started to think, Hurjet looks more and more attractive for BAF's need (As replacement for obsolete 36x F-7) given the range of capabilities it will offer in the near future within such cost effective package.

However, US engine will probably continue to be a hurdle for its export potentiality in foreseeable future.
 

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At a press conference held at the LITEXPO Exhibition and Fair Center, President Erdoğan made a statement confirming the aim to take steps regarding Airbus.

While there were no technical details in the statement, we may see concrete steps in the near future regarding the purchase of additional A400Ms in line with the Turkish air force's need for military transport aircraft (it may be 13 aircraft that Spain canceled the acquisition of) and the A330 MRTT procurement, which has been speculated many times regarding the need for tanker aircraft.

via Tolga Özbek
 

uçuyorum

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If a platform like Hürjet doesn't have enough energy generation within the engine for that radar, is it possible to add additional generators for radar like in a pod?
 

Heartbang

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If a platform like Hürjet doesn't have enough energy generation within the engine for that radar, is it possible to add additional generators for radar like in a pod?
Possible, but probably won't be necessary. US Navy's ALQ-99 jamming pods do have ram-air turbines to power the equipment.
FocUxeFXwAIFgoy

img_3685.jpg

If we manage to keep the APU running mid-flight and channel its power to the AESA array that would do wonders.
 

Nutuk

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It's a bit tangent but is there any difference between F110-GE-129 engines that powers aircrafts in twin-engine configuration and single engine configuration? Any difference in dimensions, ECUs, software etc.? In essence, can the engine power an F16 if it was dismounted from an F15 and vice versa?
As far as I have understood in twin-engine configuration one of the engine turbine work clockwise and the other engine turbine counter clockwise to neutralize the eddy vortexes created by the engines. Why? Don't ask me, someone with turbojet engine knowledge may know.
Twin engines are most likely adjusted as matching pairs because you want to have 2 engine thrust work as one and not have one of the engines push harder in such that your jet goes left while you steer straight.

From simple explanations by Mahmut Aksit I understood that you cannot use the (2x) single engine of the F16 directly on TFx but vice versa I do not know
 

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If a platform like Hürjet doesn't have enough energy generation within the engine for that radar, is it possible to add additional generators for radar like in a pod?
You‘ve to downsize the radar also in weight & no. of GaN T/R modules IMO. Afaik Hurjet‘s radome is wider than FA-50, still small compared to F-16. For Block 20 KAI will install Raytheon‘s air-cooled PahntomStrike AESA radar with half the weight of usual models and less power intake. That means also lesser range and performance …

 
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uçuyorum

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As far as I have understood in twin-engine configuration one of the engine turbine work clockwise and the other engine turbine counter clockwise to neutralize the eddy vortexes created by the engines. Why? Don't ask me, someone with turbojet engine knowledge may know.
Twin engines are most likely adjusted as matching pairs because you want to have 2 engine thrust work as one and not have one of the engines push harder in such that your jet goes left while you steer straight.

From simple explanations by Mahmut Aksit I understood that you cannot use the (2x) single engine of the F16 directly on TFx but vice versa I do not know
I had wondered this question once especially for turboprops but the answer I found on internet was that while it can be done this way, it is not an absolute requirement for engines to rotate in different directions although control surfaces and stuff would have to adjust for it.

In fact, after a bit more googling it seems this is not even a thing for turbofans at all. It seems mostly propeller planes do opposite directions
 
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Yasar_TR

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As far as I have understood in twin-engine configuration one of the engine turbine work clockwise and the other engine turbine counter clockwise to neutralize the eddy vortexes created by the engines. Why? Don't ask me, someone with turbojet engine knowledge may know.
Twin engines are most likely adjusted as matching pairs because you want to have 2 engine thrust work as one and not have one of the engines push harder in such that your jet goes left while you steer straight.

From simple explanations by Mahmut Aksit I understood that you cannot use the (2x) single engine of the F16 directly on TFx but vice versa I do not know
@Nutuk ,
I think you will find that with twin engined jet propulsion, both engines rotate in the same direction. If memory serves it is generally anti clockwise looking at the engine from the front. Yet almost all RR engines and CFM engines rotate clockwise. Almost all GE and P&W engines rotate anti clockwise. This is valid, be it single or multiple engines.
What makes a difference is the FADEC system they use. A single engined plane’s FADEC is very different to a twin engined plane’s FADEC. (Full Authority Digital Engine Control)
Also F16 has fixed inlets and F15 has variable inlets.
F15 Eagle air intakes are movable and change their angle during flight to give the optimal air flow for the engines under current conditions of airspeed, altitude, and throttle setting
GE produces F110-129 engines in A,C and E versions for F15 twin engine
GE produces F110-129 engines in B and D versions for F16 single engine
These engines are produced to perform to spec in the platform they were meant to fly.
The latest spec F15 engine is F110GE129-E version that flies F15EX. This is the engine we have on KAAN.
Again we should ask this question to @Nilgiri for further insight in to difference.
 
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Khagan1923

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At a press conference held at the LITEXPO Exhibition and Fair Center, President Erdoğan made a statement confirming the aim to take steps regarding Airbus.

While there were no technical details in the statement, we may see concrete steps in the near future regarding the purchase of additional A400Ms in line with the Turkish air force's need for military transport aircraft (it may be 13 aircraft that Spain canceled the acquisition of) and the A330 MRTT procurement, which has been speculated many times regarding the need for tanker aircraft.

via Tolga Özbek

13 A400M + 13 C130J second hand from UK would lessen the load immensely on our A400M fleet.
 

Nilgiri

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It's a bit tangent but are there any differences between F110-GE-129 engines that powers aircrafts in twin-engine configuration and single engine configuration? Any difference in dimensions, ECUs, software etc.? In essence, can the engine power an F16 if it was dismounted from an F15 and vice versa?

There are differences but not dimensional w.r.t physical interface and attachment points etc.

One engine can 100% substitute another, but in practice this is rarely done as there are optimisations done on the production + qualification side (w.r.t the inlet, FADEC tuning, trim etc) given their different airflow requirements and dynamic thrust responses etc.

i.e push come to shove yes you could switch between GE and PW on almost any F-16 AFAIK, but there will be trade-offs and performance losses involved. Not ideal, but its an idea being explored for example retiring engines early and providing these to both platforms:


Originally the main reason to bring GE into the F-15 powerplant (and thus F-16 downstream too given these were bound together by the original economy of scale argument) was for the pentagon to be able to apply pressure on PW to quickly find solutions for the original engine issues.


@Nutuk ,
I think you will find that with twin engined jet propulsion, both engines rotate in the same direction. If memory serves it is generally anti clockwise looking at the engine from the front. Yet almost all RR engines and CFM engines rotate clockwise. Almost all GE and P&W engines rotate anti clockwise. This is valid, be it single or multiple engines.
What makes a difference is the FADEC system they use. A single engined plane’s FADEC is very different to a twin engined plane’s FADEC. (Full Authority Digital Engine Control)
Also F16 has fixed inlets and F15 has variable inlets.
F15 Eagle air intakes are movable and change their angle during flight to give the optimal air flow for the engines under current conditions of airspeed, altitude, and throttle setting
GE produces F110-129 engines in A,C and E versions for F15 twin engine
GE produces F110-129 engines in B and D versions for F16 single engine
These engines are produced to perform to spec in the platform they were meant to fly.
The latest spec F15 engine is F110GE129-E version that flies F15EX. This is the engine we have on KAAN.
Again we should ask this question to @Nilgiri for further insight in to difference.

Yes you are more or less correct.

The "doubling" gyroscopic, torque, jetwash effects et al. are minimal given the size of the aircraft involved relative to the powerplant dimensions, weight and moment distributions involved.

When the % is intense enough (say a small enough aircraft with say large enough propellers with sizeable rotatable moments of inertias etc relative to the overall weight/positioning/dampening of the system)....then you build the argument for counter-rotation.

That's why its a fairly common feature on propeller aircraft as propellers notably have far larger relative diameters to the aircraft.

i.e the issue is important for say a V-22 to take the extreme, that the props rotate counter to each other (even for level cruise flight, as its even more clear for VTOL/hover as a tail rotor is done away with). Its same issue in lot of propeller aircraft, having 2 gearboxes (one for each direction) is a cost, but is worth it to address the issue at this %intensity and helping counter as much of the "combined" propwash effects at various flight conditions as possible too (that are not as prevalent in jetwash given the jet velocity and downstream distance away from a/c etc the issue starts to crop up which tends to be irrelevant)

Otherwise its not economical to make two sets of production and MRO support lines for clockwise and counterclockwise rotation for one engine. i.e just pick one. That covers almost any jet aircraft, single or double engine.

There is the issue of spin for double and multi engined jet aircraft (especially commercial where they can be spread quite far from the center of mass).....with regards to the (combined) gyro effect being able to add to it and hampering spin recovery compared to having it neutral (by counter rotating engines) and not hampering this. But these cases are very rare to consider and are more economical to address in the larger control system to begin with. The issue materialises more significantly with propeller aircraft and hence often is addressed by counter rotation becoming more relevant again relative to production+MRO costs.

There are however a few exceptions where the intensity issue becomes severe enough for jet aircraft like the Harrier given its relative small size, large engine involved, large diameter fan involved etc and its peculiar requirements imposed at low speed (the vertical portion and pilot weight distribution etc) that made it easy to upset if the engine was adding its torque and gyroscopic effect (especially in the pitch - yaw coefficient in the stability control matrix). Hence the Pegasus engine had to be specially designed to have the LP spool rotate in opposite direction to the HP spool to get the net torque and gyro effect as low as possible.

But these exceptions are rare...generally the effects are minimal to the larger control-stability, aeroelasticity and aerodynamic matrices (specifically their eigenvectors) involved in jet aircraft...so the economics of having just one cookie cutter design w.r.t rotation overrides it easily.

Apologies for any typos/errors, its off top of my head and I proof read just once.

Edit: changed contra to counter (these are two different things).
 
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Nilgiri

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Originally the main reason to bring GE into the F-15 powerplant (and thus F-16 downstream too given these were bound together by the original economy of scale argument) was for the pentagon to be able to apply pressure on PW to quickly find solutions for the original engine issues.

For those that would like to read more on the matter:



Article from 1979:

 

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I strongly suspect, F-16 that didn't undergo Peace Onyx III (PO-III) programme can be upgraded to ÖZGÜR.

"Interestingly, the air-launch of the BOZDOĞAN missile was performed from an F-16C Block 40 aircraft, which did not receive avionic upgrades under PO-III and F-16 MSM Projects. The non-modernized F-16C/D Block 30 and Block 40 aircraft are equipped with the older generation mission computer, and source codes of the Operational Flight Program (OFP) that runs on this mission computer were purchased by Turkey many years ago."





And according to this news, the numbers of F-16 modernized under PO-III ws 163.



Conclusion- So, that should leaves roughly 80 F-16.
Given 35 of them are already undergoing ÖZGÜR modernization.
That leaves 45 more that Turkey has source codes of.
@dBSPL
Yeah, more or less. To give you a bit more context, Turkiye modernized it's F-16 through PO III program. The original plan was to upgrade all block 30 aircraft into CCIP "lite" configuration and all block 40 and 50 aircraft into CCIP+ configuration, but later the plan was altered and only around 130 block 40 and 50 aircrafts were upgraded. 80 of them are equipped with Raytheon MMC-7000 and 50 with BAE CFCC. The rest are still equipped with original F-16 mission computer LRU.

So those block 30 and 40 which were still equipped with the old mission computer are the planned recipient of the new Ozgur upgrade package. If I were THK, I wouldn't want to spend all that money replacing perfectly fine MMC-7000 and CFCC conmputers which are the same models being offered to other air forces around the world as block 70/72 configuration.

Didn't we hear definitive announcement from Ismail Demir that ÖZGÜR would be extended to block 40 and 50?
Regardless of what Ismail Demir might have said, for the reason I've mentioned above I'm not sure if block 50 aircraft will actually receive Ozgur any time soon. Maybe in the future when block 50 and 50+ aircraft undergo life extension program but current focus should be on those 80-ish block 30 and 40 aircraft.

Yes, but at what pace, at what rate? Please explain this $20 billion to me in such a way that I can be more hopeful about the future of a sophisticated modernization program arising from the OZGUR project. I don't know how we will squeeze ÖZGÜR into the same period when we are signing the largest project development and serial production contracts for the KAAN and Hurjet projects in the history of the Turkish defense industry for the next 10 years, while at the same time signing the largest aviation purchase contract in our history from the USA. Either this speculated figure is complete nonsense, or the budget of the Ministry of Defense will increase 2-3 times.
The lead time on f16 from US is in years
Well, the problem is that Turkish block 70 upgrade (Peace Onyx V?) will most likely be done in TUSAS, since as @Bozan said, current Lockheed capacity for F-16 after the move to SC is very small compared to what they had in Fort Worth. The lead time extends to late 2020s. Not only that, TUSAS also did the PO 3 themselves in the past and other countries who are upgrading their own F-16s are doing that on their home soil. So overall there's not much to argue when it comes to capcity. Once Ozgur development is complete, its going to be upgraded on the same line in same facility.
 

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Still, i think it is possible.



$20 billions seems to be official estimate.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R47493

However, i find it hard to believe Turkey would move forward with such absurd numbers.

Instead, 32 Typhoon for $6 billions and modernization of remaining 45 F-16 that Turkey (reportedly) has source code of should be just enough (+KE and Akinci) to hold onto until the KAAN arrives.


@Chocopie
900 A2A and 800 A2G weapons is mentioned in the report.
Let’s elaborate on your rough calculations:
According to official US defence sources the cost of Greece’s 123 plane upgrade kit will cost them 2.4 billion dollars. This includes 125 Aesa radars and 123 kits of avionics etc.
That means Greeks are paying just under 20 million dollars per kit. I can’t see us paying a great deal more than that. So for the 79 kits, it totals 1.55 billion dollars.

Regarding the F16 V70 planes themselves; there are various quotes made by LM:
Slovakia has been offered 14 planes for 800million. That is 57 million a piece.
For Colombia they have offered 108 million dollars a piece for 24 planes and 133 million dollars a piece for 12 planes. However these include variety of different munitions.
Bulgaria is contemplating to buy 8 F16 planes for 1.3 billion. That means 162 million a piece.
Below site quotes f16v70 price to be 63million a piece

As Turkey will want to produce these aircrafts and their engines in house at Tusas and TEI, I can’t see us paying more than Slovakian planes.
So that makes 2.4 billion for the 40 planes.
Regarding 600 AAMs:
If we are thinking of buying the long range AIM 120 D version (Since we have Gokdogan in production it is only apt to think that we will go for the Aim 120D) : UK ordered 200 of them for 650 million dollars. Making it 3.25 million a piece. So for 600 missiles it would total 1.95 billion dollars.
Regarding the 800 Precision Guided Munition :
It s difficult to guess what we would be buying from US, since we have so many different versions of this type of munition in our inventory. The only munition that makes sense is something like an AGM-88G HARM as Akbaba is still in development stage (Since Greeks have recently ordered the E version) at a price of nearly 1 million a piece making 0.8 billion.

So in total the logical payable cost of this order should be no more than 6 billion dollars. 20 billion dollars is outrageously high and in explicable.
I think this 20 billion dollar figure is not that meaningful just yet because we don't know the details. CRS reports could only cite public information and we still don't have anything like an official DSCA document listing which exact equipments are going to be sold to Turkiye.

I think there's a possibility that this "20 billion" includes not just what's mentioned in the CRS report (that is 40 new aircraft + kit for 79 + miscellaneous ranging from missiles and bombs to spare parts and services) might not be what the "20 billion" encompasses. Rather, I think it's a figure for a total possible contract including options to upgrade remaining Turkish F-16s, which amounts to 70+ aircraft. Also, that option could also include additional new aircraft. Afterall, DSCA grant often involves possible total number cleared by the US, not the actual number of equippment the recipient country is actually considering to acquire. So let's all wait and see.
 

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After news, Aselsan shares went through the roof on the stock exchange today. Just when we were talking about 20 billion dollars, it felt like medicine. A total contract size of over 2 billion dollars indicates a large-scale F-16 modernization? If so, I think Murad-AESA for F-16s is now ready.



Edit to dear Mod's edit:
A total of two contracts were signed.
The first contract is worth 2.618.751.172,- TL and 132.078.069,- USD.
The second contract is worth 18.073.289.646,- TL and 1.065.303.880,- USD.
The total amount of the two project contracts is TL 20,692,040,818 and USD 1,197,381,949. At the current exchange rate, this is around 2 billion dollars.


KAP notification : https://www.kap.org.tr/tr/Bildirim/1171374


The reason for I stating the entire contract in dollars is that if these contracts are related to the modernization of fighter jets, which seems to be the case, it will be easier to compare them with similar examples from world once we know the scope of the contract and how many platforms it covers.
Wait, how's 20 billion TRY 2 billion USD? XE.com says that's more like 785 million USD as 1 USD = 26 TRY. Am I getting this wrong? Also you said that total sum of the two contracts is 1.2 billion USD. What's with all the differences between those numbers?

Anyways, if we go by the 20 billion TRY number, I think I'm fairly on point that 80 F-16s are on the pipeline for the modernization into Ozgur configuration.
 

Windchime

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i.e certification already done w.r.t better generator stator wedges, diodes, better armature, better constant speed drive etc. and whatever else may have been involved regarding specifics of the F-15 EX project (w.r.t latest generator + electric supply) that F-16 can now double dip into without needing to do again (with PW).
Wait, F-15EX still uses CSD? I've thought it would be using VSCF scheme by now. I guess its one of those legacy design carry-overs
 

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