TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

Afif

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As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.

I am actually thinking about future procurements.
Both Greek air force and TurAF will probably have AIM-120 C-8 as (i read somewhere) Reytheon will only produce AIM-120 C-8/D from now on.
 

Quasar

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Hellenic F-16 Block 70 equipped with APG-83 and AIM-120 C-8/D VS TurAF F-16 equipped with MURAD and Gokdogan.

It is a fun match up to watch.

As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.
Greek airforce Rafale’s however, are to have the MBDA’s game changer Meteor air to air missiles. If any of them have been delivered by MBDA is not clarified yet.
AIM 120 C 8 is later named AIM 120 D as we know the main difference bettwen C and D are off course range but more importantly two way data link and gps navigation I am almost certain that Gokdogan will evolve to the same direction
 
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Yasar_TR

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AN/APG-83, the SABR Scalable Agile Beam Radar is a specially developed radar that uses as much energy as it is asked for. That way its energy consumption is regulated and kept low enough so as not to be a burden on the F16’s power generation systems. It is also designed so that it can almost be a direct swap with the in house radar it is replacing.
Due to the power requirement of the Murad radar we may be encountering some difficulties especially with respect to cooling. Hence the delays. But once these hurdles are overcome, the Murad should, on paper, have much better performance than the SABR. It will have higher performance GaN modules for a start. Although we don’t know how well our engineers in Aselsan have designed it, considering the fact that SABR range is not that much ahead of the radar it is replacing (SABR is however an AESA radar and has Low Probability of Interception) , Murad should outperform the SABR by a good margin.
 

Quasar

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AN/APG-83, the SABR Scalable Agile Beam Radar is a specially developed radar that uses as much energy as it is asked for. That way its energy consumption is regulated and kept low enough so as not to be a burden on the F16’s power generation systems. It is also designed so that it can almost be a direct swap with the in house radar it is replacing.
Due to the power requirement of the Murad radar we may be encountering some difficulties especially with respect to cooling. Hence the delays. But once these hurdles are overcome, the Murad should, on paper, have much better performance than the SABR. It will have higher performance GaN modules for a start. Although we don’t know how well our engineers in Aselsan have designed it, considering the fact that SABR range is not that much ahead of the radar it is replacing (SABR is however an AESA radar and has Low Probability of Interception) , Murad should outperform the SABR by a good margin.
is there any diffrence bettween Pratt Whitney and GE engines in regard to energy generation?
 

Yasar_TR

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is there any diffrence bettween Pratt Whitney and GE engines in regard to energy generation?
As per @Radonsider ’s response it is to do with the electric generator.
Although @Nilgiri can answer this better.
However UAE wanted better radar on their f16s and also more raw power for the plane. Hence they have paid over 3 billion dollars for the development of f110GE132 engines to GE.
 

Heartbang

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I would like to use the attention this thread is getting to propose some upgrades for our F-16 ÖZGÜR program:

I think our unshackled Vipers could use the advantage of developments in our RAM paint tech, similar to "Have Glass V" paint scheme of USAF F-16's.

F-16-Have-Glass-Aggressors-2.jpg

15151731709_8c09150a7d_o.jpg

F-16-Dark-F-35-color-scheme-top.jpg


We should also develop a stealth weapons pod to not just enhance these stealth gains, but also house some important electronic apparatus such as a LIDAR.
This pod could also house the necessary electronics to "translate" the communication signals between NATO aircraft and Soviet weaponry and vice versa.

34144f7819f06317624aa1a6326ce9e8.jpg

l60rQb2.png
 

TheInsider

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As far as I know Greek Airforce does not have the AIM-120/D missiles. It is the C version that both Turkish and Greek airforces have.
Greek airforce Rafale’s however, are to have the MBDA’s game changer Meteor air to air missiles. If any of them have been delivered by MBDA is not clarified yet.
Those Meteors are limited by Rafale's unimpressive radar.
 

Afif

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Those Meteors are limited by Rafale's unimpressive radar.

My thoughts also. But here is an interesting perspective
Your ability to detect, track or engage low RCS targets depends primarily on the signal transmission strength of your TRMs (in turn determined by power output & substrate material) & on your signal-processing capabilities (back-end electronics & software). There are more than enough TRMs to provide the mainlobe with all the performance that any other AESA-FCR of this generation can realistically deliver. Plus, the French have a nearly 10-year lead over the other European companies when it comes to operationalizing the AESA - so I would trust Thales' solutions wrt signal processing over Selex/Leonardo which is a fairly new-comer to the field.

Where a smaller array will hurt you however, is with regard to 1) weaker sidelobe performance, 2) lower active Field of View & 3) lower number of interleaved operations that can be performed simultaneously.

The first two disadvantages do not really manifest much in BVR engagements, rather in WVR situations. Because in BVR, Rafale relies on a vast array of passive/offboard inputs to cue the radar. This was more of an issue back when AESAs were sitting on early 4th gen jets that did not have sensor fusion. It's still an issue, though less severe, on Rafale - which is why they plan on implementing conformal tile radars around the airframe in future blocks, which should make it a considerably superior solution to having a single larger array in the nose.

The last disadvantage can indeed manifest in BVR...but given that the RBE can actively track more targets than any other FCR on a non-5th gen jet (40 targets simultaneously), it's evident that Thales has found a back-end solution that can work with the smaller front-end (active array).

If the TRM tech, power output & back-end components/software are the same, the mainlobe detection range will be the same. Like I said, the downside you will experience will happen wrt the sidelobe performance, FoV & interleaved operations capability. As in, if you have 100 TRMs you can dedicate 50 of them to Track-while-scan in look-up mode (air targets) and 25 will be left to scan in look-down, and 25 for Electronic Attack.

If you have 150 TRMs, you can dedicate 50 TRMs each for look-down & EA while still maintaining 50 for look-up TWS. Or, you can keep look-down & EA at same 25 TRM, but put 100 toward look-up TWS which should help you scan a much wider field of view, or track more targets within that FoV.

radar-beam.png


Trying to register a low RCS target by throwing more TRMs at it is a game of diminishing returns, especially as most LO/VLO are optimized against X-band. As long as sufficient number of TRMs are available to form a main lobe, adding some more isn't really gonna give a return that scales accordingly - because the power emitted by each TRM is not going to stack. What they CAN do is to increase the size of the main lobe, which like I said, helps to increase FoV.

The Gripen E AESA is however superior to the Rafale's current radar - but not because it has a slightly bigger array, but because they seem to be testing a GaN substrate for their TRMs. Which means each TRM should at least theoretically*** be able to transmit more power than current RBE-2AA's GaAs modules (GaN version is still work in progress at Thales).



*** I say theoretically because even though the GaN substrate may be able to transmit up to 5x times more power, in reality the amount of power you can transmit is determined by how much your APUs & engines can generate, and how much heat the radar's cooling system can remove efficiently. So supposing that you put the same GaN TRMs on both Gripen & Rafale, the latter with 2 x engines can always have more electrical power on tap at any given time than a single-engine jet. So even with the same radar, Rafale might be able to transmit more power and/or carry out intensive TWS for much longer periods than a Gripen.



The size of the array is determined by size of the nosecone, which in turn is informed by aerodynamics & other mission needs.

Obviously if you have an airframe with a large nosecone on hand, you're going to make the most of it. Adding more TRMs doesn't hurt, like I said it helps you do a lot more jobs simultaneously and/or achieve bigger FoVs which is important for air superiority - it just doesn't mean that a larger TRM count in of itself gives you a farther search/tracking range. It doesn't.

Bottom line being, Rafale can take just as much advantage of the Meteor's range as Gripen E can.
 
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TheInsider

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- 29 F-16 Block 50+ with CFTs
- 71 F-16 Block 50M
- 102 F-16 Block 40M
- 36 F-16 Block 30TM

We will either upgrade 79 block 40 and 50s to Viper standard and leave out 29 Block 50+ which means we will upgrade 130 fighters to Özgür standard or we will upgrade 29 Block 50+ and 50 block 40s+ block 50s to Viper standard and upgrade 159 fighters to Özgür standard. I don't see any other way.

Of course, those contracts which are valued at over 2 billion are just Aselsan's share of the project it is not the total value of the modernization.
 
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Yasar_TR

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GaN is much more efficient...for the same power output it need less energy requirement and less cooling
GaN's high power density, or its ability to dissipate heat from a small package, makes it so impressive. While GaAs has a basic power density of about 1.5 W/mm, GaN has a power density ranging from 5 to 12 W/mm.
GaN has higher electron mobility than GaAs and other semiconductors, so it has a broader amplification range. Despite typically coming in a much smaller package than GaAs, it can rapidly disperse heat to avoid burnout even at extremely high voltage levels.
Yes it is more efficient. But that means you have more heat dissipated that needs to be cooled off.
 

Nilgiri

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As per @Radonsider ’s response it is to do with the electric generator.
Although @Nilgiri can answer this better.
However UAE wanted better radar on their f16s and also more raw power for the plane. Hence they have paid over 3 billion dollars for the development of f110GE132 engines to GE.

Both engines have the same potential when it comes to electric generation onboard....as Radoninsider illustrated (its a small % in the end to run the generator and distribution etc even with more powerful radar etc).

The F110 has lately benefitted from its selection for the F-15 EX and the certification involved there given the needs of the large radar etc there.

So latest tier F-16s these days can prefer to (with any elected heavier radar and electric system demand) basically leverage (cost, time savings and availability) from the F-15EX certification done already by GE in that project that PW one doesn't have.

i.e certification already done w.r.t better generator stator wedges, diodes, better armature, better constant speed drive etc. and whatever else may have been involved regarding specifics of the F-15 EX project (w.r.t latest generator + electric supply) that F-16 can now double dip into without needing to do again (with PW).

In addition to the higher thrust the latest GE powerplant has as well of course ( ~ 32.5 vs 29.1 k lbf)
 

Rodeo

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Both engines have the same potential when it comes to electric generation onboard....as Radoninsider illustrated (its a small % in the end to run the generator and distribution etc even with more powerful radar etc).

The F110 has lately benefitted from its selection for the F-15 EX and the certification involved there given the needs of the large radar etc there.

So latest tier F-16s these days can prefer to (with any elected heavier radar and electric system demand) basically leverage (cost, time savings and availability) from the F-15EX certification done already by GE in that project that PW one doesn't have.

i.e certification already done w.r.t better generator stator wedges, diodes, better armature, better constant speed drive etc. and whatever else may have been involved regarding specifics of the F-15 EX project (w.r.t latest generator + electric supply) that F-16 can now double dip into without needing to do again (with PW).

In addition to the higher thrust the latest GE powerplant has as well of course ( ~ 32.5 vs 29.1 k lbf)
It's a bit tangent but are there any differences between F110-GE-129 engines that powers aircrafts in twin-engine configuration and single engine configuration? Any difference in dimensions, ECUs, software etc.? In essence, can the engine power an F16 if it was dismounted from an F15 and vice versa?
 

dBSPL

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"We will install an ASELSAN AESA radar on the Hürjet, and its nose is made accordingly. In this way, it will be the same as the F-16 radar, and we will place our missiles on it. For the hourly flight costs of the Hürjet, you can divide the average flight cost of an F-16 by 5."

Temel Kotil | TAI

via Avionot

I hope that some of these issues will be clarified at IDEF.

A huge purchase from the US, a huge contract for aircraft modernization with Aselsan, which points to a unique-domestic modernization program, on the other hand, the advancing of the Hürjet to combatant level and the KAAN program, which will have higher costs than all of them.

And these are only issues related to the combatant part.

- 29 F-16 Block 50+ with CFTs
- 71 F-16 Block 50M
- 102 F-16 Block 40M
- 36 F-16 Block 30TM

We will either upgrade 79 block 40 and 50s to Viper standard and leave out 29 Block 50+ which means we will upgrade 130 fighters to Özgür standard or we will upgrade 29 Block 50+ and 50 block 40s+ block 50s to Viper standard and upgrade 159 fighters to Özgür standard. I don't see any other way.

Of course, those contracts which are valued at over 2 billion are just Aselsan's share of the project it is not the total value of the modernization.
The Block-30s are actually very agile platforms and together with indigenous arsenal and aesa radar, they will have a serious impact on their ACM capabilities. However, I wish we had the opportunity to install indigenous computers on the Block-50+ and to perform the necessary system and weapon integrations built-in house.

With 29 indigenous F-16 with CFTs over block-50 and 40 new built Lockheed's Block-70s, a total of 69 long-range (compared to the standard F-16s) and up-to-date F-16s, i.e. about 4 squadrons, we would have gained more manageable logistics and an X factor in this group over indigenous variant. There are alternative ways to use future domestic munitions/missiles without having them certified by the US, but it would be great not to have to.
 
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Afif

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"We will install an ASELSAN AESA radar on the Hürjet, and its nose is made accordingly. In this way, it will be the same as the F-16 radar, and we will place our missiles on it. For the hourly flight costs of the Hürjet, you can divide the average flight cost of an F-16 by 5."

I started to think, Hurjet looks more and more attractive for BAF's need (As replacement for obsolete 36x F-7) given the range of capabilities it will offer in the near future within such cost effective package.

However, US engine will probably continue to be a hurdle for its export potentiality in foreseeable future.
 

dBSPL

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At a press conference held at the LITEXPO Exhibition and Fair Center, President Erdoğan made a statement confirming the aim to take steps regarding Airbus.

While there were no technical details in the statement, we may see concrete steps in the near future regarding the purchase of additional A400Ms in line with the Turkish air force's need for military transport aircraft (it may be 13 aircraft that Spain canceled the acquisition of) and the A330 MRTT procurement, which has been speculated many times regarding the need for tanker aircraft.

via Tolga Özbek
 

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