TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[IC3M@N FX]

One should not rely on others and not spend a cent more in the USA & Europe. Instead, use the money you would pay for the Eurofighter/F-16 to invest directly in the Hürjet & F-16 Özgur I & II and accelerate them to the absolute maximum.
So that everything is completed in 2-3 years at the latest and all Turkish F-16s are upgraded to the equivalent of Block 70.
And 10 additional Hürjets will be available as Block 0 for TCG Anadolu.
Then 10 more Hürjets every year, and we would have a buffer until KAAN arrives.
Then neither Greece nor Saudi Arabia & Co would have a certain head start.
The KAAN project can then be completed in parallel without any pressure, and at least 3-4 prototypes can be produced by 2029 to correct all errors. The first Block 0 could then be produced directly with its own engine in 2030.
Until then, there would also be the opportunity to make minor design changes to the aircraft, and additionally to get an improved version of MURAD AESA radar as version 2.0, and improved AVIONIK and the radar-absorbing coating/painting from the findings of the Anka 3/Kizilelma and F-16 Özgur and Hürjet.

 

[RMZN]

I wonder if this is prep for also agreeing to sell to Turkey or it's to tell everyone look we authorized one of them it should be enough kinda thing that makes it even more unlikely for us.

maybe if Erdogan didnt openly support Hamas. They can overlook SA human rights abuses but not any hostility towards Israel or criticism of their actions.

 

[Strong AI]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1744086178821738583

The Saudis' fight against the Houthi rebels in Yemen is also helping Israel, said Foreign Minister Baerbock during her visit to Jerusalem.

During her visit to Jerusalem, Germany's chief diplomat pointed out that the Saudi air force was shooting down missiles aimed at Israel by the Houthi rebels in Yemen.

She said after talks with Israel's President Izchak Herzog and the new Foreign Minister Israel Katz that Saudi Arabia was thus also making a significant contribution to Israel's security these days and containing the danger of a regional conflagration. "For this very reason, we do not see ourselves as the German government opposing the British plans for further Eurofighters for Saudi Arabia," explained the Minister.

The Minister called it remarkable that Israel and Saudi Arabia had not rejected their normalisation course following the terrorist attacks by Islamist Hamas on 7 October. "The fact that Saudi Arabia is now intercepting rockets and drones that the Houthis are firing at Israel emphasises this, and we are grateful for that."

Bundesregierung gibt weitere Eurofighter für Saudi-Arabien frei

Die Bundesregierung ist offen für die Lieferung weiterer Eurofighter an Saudi-Arabien. Der Kampf der Saudis gegen die Huthi-Miliz im Jemen helfe auch Israel, sagte Außenministerin Baerbock. Von den Grünen kommt harsche Kritik.

www.tagesschau.de

Looks like Israel is holding their leash very tight.
And if there is enough money on the table, you can gloss over everything.

 

[Nutuk]

American pilot about F16 vs F35
He basically says F16 beats F35 in dogfight, but from distance F16 has no chance. A 4th gen fighter jet stands no chance against 5th gen. that's why I am vehemently opposed against purchase of Eurofighter (pure crap)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1743736171350401516

4th gen fighter stands no chance against F35

But what about Kizilelma vs F35? I really would like to hear stealth assessments from Baykar, how stealth is Kizilelma?

 

[Afif]

There is not much serious convo to have on F-35 vs KE.

KAAN vs F-35 on the other hand could be an interesting discussion.

 

[Nutuk]

There is not much serious convo to have on F-35 vs KE.

KAAN vs F-35 on the other hand could be an interesting discussion.

KE vs F35 makes as much sense as Kaan vs F35

Stealth seems to be the determining factor, see first shoot first. Question is how stealth is KE and how stealth will be Kaan (assuming that 0.01 RCS is a real value for F35, cos honestly we do not know the real RCS of F35 neither)

 

[TheInsider]

At some point, stealth loses its importance. Let's say F-35 sees KE at 20km and KE sees F-35 at 10km. The fighter with 360-degree IR detection and tracking will have the upper hand.

 

[Nutuk]

I started this discussion of drone vs F35, because all nations (who can build it) are rushing now to build stealth "loyal wingman" drones.

The basic idea is of course that these drones fly ahead of the "mothership" 5th or 6th generation fighter jet. They will serve both ways, if they can detect the enemy fighter or drone first the first to release the missile will be at advantage. But even if the drone is shotdown, it may give the mothership time to shoot the missiles and scoot.

So my argument of KE vs F35 is not just a fantasy, it's a quite probable scenario in the short future

 

[Afif]

KE vs F35 makes as much sense as Kaan vs F35

Stealth seems to be the determining factor, see first shoot first. Question is how stealth is KE and how stealth will be Kaan (assuming that 0.01 RCS is a real value for F35, cos honestly we do not know the real RCS of F35 neither)

Obviously the exact number is classified. But what we know from OSINT so far, it is pretty reliable to assume it is atleast –30 dB, possibly more. Which means a 0.001 RCS. (Sea a clean F-35's radar scattering simulation in X band, and then the new gen RAM is ought to minimize the RCS by -20 dB at least, possibly by -25 dB.)

 

[Huelague]

F16 beats F35 in dogfight

In which way? Agility, mobility , manoeuvre, speed, reaction..?

 

[boredaf]

A 4th gen fighter jet stands no chance against 5th gen.

Point of having new and capable 4th, or rather 4.5, gen planes is not to have them go against 5th gen planes. 5th gen planes are expensive to produce AND to fly, that's why even US and China is still buying/producing 4th gen planes. When US air force asked the Congress for permission to retire 150 aircraft, neither F-16s nor F-15s were included in that list. You don't need to use an F-35/J-20 for every mission, sometimes an F-15 or J-10 does the job just fine. Why put extra hours on the engine and the frame unnecessarily, and for a high price? Smaller nations that barely have an air force worth mentioning might transition all the way to 5th gen but for nations that have to have a big air force for diverse missions it is neither economical nor logical.

One should not rely on others and not spend a cent more in the USA & Europe. Instead, use the money you would pay for the Eurofighter/F-16 to invest directly in the Hürjet & F-16 Özgur I & II and accelerate them to the absolute maximum.
So that everything is completed in 2-3 years at the latest and all Turkish F-16s are upgraded to the equivalent of Block 70.
And 10 additional Hürjets will be available as Block 0 for TCG Anadolu.
Then 10 more Hürjets every year, and we would have a buffer until KAAN arrives.
Then neither Greece nor Saudi Arabia & Co would have a certain head start.
The KAAN project can then be completed in parallel without any pressure, and at least 3-4 prototypes can be produced by 2029 to correct all errors. The first Block 0 could then be produced directly with its own engine in 2030.
Until then, there would also be the opportunity to make minor design changes to the aircraft, and additionally to get an improved version of MURAD AESA radar as version 2.0, and improved AVIONIK and the radar-absorbing coating/painting from the findings of the Anka 3/Kizilelma and F-16 Özgur and Hürjet.

Hürjet is a year or two away from starting its production as a trainer. There isn't even a proper light attack configuration yet, let alone a naval version. It isn't even a naval aircraft, there are multiple parts/systems that would have to be changed for it to be one. And TCG Anadolu itself would have to go through major changes to be able to use Hürjet, hell as it is, it won't even be able to use KE.

And all of these doesn't just take money, it also takes time, resources and manpower. What makes you think that only thing slowing down Hürjet and Özgür project is money? You are making a lot of assumptions based on nothing but it'll all be faster if we just throw money at it. There are only so many designers, engineers and technicians with different expertise that can work on these projects, just as only so many companies, which are also handling other projects.

 

[Nutuk]

In which way? Agility, mobility , manoeuvre, speed, reaction..?

Yes I guess so, not my opinion but that of an experienced US pilot.

 

[Nutuk]

Point of having new and capable 4th, or rather 4.5, gen planes is not to have them go against 5th gen planes. 5th gen planes are expensive to produce AND to fly, that's why even US and China is still buying/producing 4th gen planes. When US air force asked the Congress for permission to retire 150 aircraft, neither F-16s nor F-15s were included in that list. You don't need to use an F-35/J-20 for every mission, sometimes an F-15 or J-10 does the job just fine. Why put extra hours on the engine and the frame unnecessarily, and for a high price? Smaller nations that barely have an air force worth mentioning might transition all the way to 5th gen but for nations that have to have a big air force for diverse missions it is neither economical nor logical.

Sure I do not disagree with that, but see US and China buying 4th gen is to support their own industry and that is not a dumb thing to do. Question is who do we support if we chose at this point a 4th gen?

Chosing a Hurjet light fighter would be acceptable just like US and China is doing. Chosing an F16 (albait also there I am in principle against buying new 40 fighters) is logistically seen defendable, but Eurofighter is sheer madness.

 

[uçuyorum]

F35 doesn't even have a useable cannon so ( B and C don't have ir and A has defective cannon) so obviously F16 is gonna be the better dogfighter. But it really doesn't mean anything in practice when you get shot down from 100km.

 

[Nutuk]

F35 doesn't even have a useable cannon so ( B and C don't have ir and A has defective cannon) so obviously F16 is gonna be the better dogfighter. But it really doesn't mean anything in practice when you get shot down from 100km.

This is exactly where the "stealth" factor of 5th generation impacts. See first, shoot first.

Besides dogfights nowadays only occur during training with "friendly" forces. When was the last time a fighter jet was downed in a dogfight?

 

[Cenkcnk]

germany approved Eurofighter sales to KSA.
Let's see what they are gonna do for our request.

 

[Huelague]

Yes I guess so, not my opinion but that of an experienced US pilot.

I am little bit sceptical about that. I think its more the pilot than the jet itself who makes the different. F-16 is a 50! years old jet. They know all their ins and outs. In contrast to the F-35.

 

[Huelague]

We have round about 300 fighter jets. How many do we need in future? If we think on Kaan and our geopolitical expansions.

 

[uçuyorum]

The fact that KSA got eurofighter approval for being buddy buddy with Israel makes me increasingly think that this was a slight to us. Basically teasing us and its even less likely for us to get eurofighters now, as the production lines will have more orders too our 40 won't make a difference now.

 

[Huelague]

Besides dogfights nowadays only occur during training with "friendly" forces. When was the last time a fighter jet was downed in a dogfight?

Greece, Iran, Armenia..if these are possible enemies in the future, dogfights are very likely.