TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Hasanrize]

We have discussed it here earlier with @Nilgiri about the upgrading typhoon tranche 1. Apparently as it stands it is very difficult to upgrade it from tranche 1 to tranche 3 or 4 , due to the main stumbling block of Aesa radar being integrated in to other avionics.
But the tranche 1 can be upgraded to tranche 2+ level with many tranche 3 and 4 parts, making it a very capable jet.
But from what I understand of @Bogeyman ’s post above, UK is prepared to update these planes extensively so that to achieve at least tranche 3 levels. They have 51 of these planes in their inventory and can also supplement these tranche 1 planes with tranche 3 from their own stock to by pass any German blockage.
Italians are also very keen to supply 40+ of the typhoons they have available too. From what I read about Italian approach is that they are open to TOT on these planes to facilitate upgrading. Remember that the Hybrid GaAs/GaN Aesa radar integrated in to the latest version of typhoons are built by Leonardo UK.
Without the Aesa radars they are not going to be of much use to us. Albeit still a very capable air superiority aircraft with Meteor missile and with Captor-M radar. But without the UK’s latest ECRS mk2 Aesa or Captor-E Aesa it could be inferior to Rafale of Greece.

After this, the UK would think more than twice before having a joint military program with Germany.

 

[Ecderha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570322384691003392

 

[Nilgiri]

We have discussed it here earlier with @Nilgiri about the upgrading typhoon tranche 1. Apparently as it stands it is very difficult to upgrade it from tranche 1 to tranche 3 or 4 , due to the main stumbling block of Aesa radar being integrated in to other avionics.
But the tranche 1 can be upgraded to tranche 2+ level with many tranche 3 and 4 parts, making it a very capable jet.
But from what I understand of @Bogeyman ’s post above, UK is prepared to update these planes extensively so that to achieve at least tranche 3 levels. They have 51 of these planes in their inventory and can also supplement these tranche 1 planes with tranche 3 from their own stock to by pass any German blockage.
Italians are also very keen to supply 40+ of the typhoons they have available too. From what I read about Italian approach is that they are open to TOT on these planes to facilitate upgrading. Remember that the Hybrid GaAs/GaN Aesa radar integrated in to the latest version of typhoons are built by Leonardo UK.
Without the Aesa radars they are not going to be of much use to us. Albeit still a very capable air superiority aircraft with Meteor missile and with Captor-M radar. But without the UK’s latest ECRS mk2 Aesa or Captor-E Aesa it could be inferior to Rafale of Greece.

Head to head they will be inferior.... but silver lining (in that hypothetical) is they will be good missile trucks essentially (with suitable AEW and AESA apex platforms and datalinking in formation).

TR Air Force can design a suitable well-hedged strategy matrix with that deck of cards, no problem...especially for any full scale conflict....and even how to mitigate weaknesses in a limited conflict or engagement. Near-legacy airframes are always better to have than not have, increasingly you can network them quite effectively to layer around and maximise potential of your top tier stuff.

TR bigger issue by far is how to sort out its economic and fiscal power, as this is what will ultimately set what you can acquire (both internationally and domestically) for defence. Defence is a privileged cul-de-sac of spending in many ways....so it is very dependent in the end on your larger economic success and productivity w.r.t the larger world.

 

[Afif]

We have discussed it here earlier with @Nilgiri about the upgrading typhoon tranche 1. Apparently as it stands it is very difficult to upgrade it from tranche 1 to tranche 3 or 4 , due to the main stumbling block of Aesa radar being integrated in to other avionics.
But the tranche 1 can be upgraded to tranche 2+ level with many tranche 3 and 4 parts, making it a very capable jet.
But from what I understand of @Bogeyman ’s post above, UK is prepared to update these planes extensively so that to achieve at least tranche 3 levels. They have 51 of these planes in their inventory and can also supplement these tranche 1 planes with tranche 3 from their own stock to by pass any German blockage.
Italians are also very keen to supply 40+ of the typhoons they have available too. From what I read about Italian approach is that they are open to TOT on these planes to facilitate upgrading. Remember that the Hybrid GaAs/GaN Aesa radar integrated in to the latest version of typhoons are built by Leonardo UK.
Without the Aesa radars they are not going to be of much use to us. Albeit still a very capable air superiority aircraft with Meteor missile and with Captor-M radar. But without the UK’s latest ECRS mk2 Aesa or Captor-E Aesa it could be inferior to Rafale of Greece.

I was wondering if turkey can obtain the source codes of remaining f16s ( blocks 40 and 50 ) and upgrade all these aircrafts to the ozgur lever as an interim solution!
Until tfx is ready, coupled with good numbers of mius and ackinci wouldn't these supposedly upgraded 245 f16s be economically efficient and technically just good enough for TAF without eyeing foreign aircraft at the moment ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I was wondering if turkey can obtain the source codes of remaining f16s ( blocks 40 and 50 ) and upgrade all these aircrafts to the ozgur lever as an interim solution!
Until tfx is ready, coupled with good numbers of mius and ackinci wouldn't these supposedly upgraded 245 f16s be economically efficient and technically just good enough for TAF without eyeing foreign aircraft at the moment ?

Turkey doesn’t need source codes of F16s. Ozgur modernisation involves rewriting complete flight computer program and all relevant programs associated in the performance of the plane and it’s weapons.
Ozgur means liberated in Turkish. The plane becomes our “bitch”. It will do whatever we want it to do.
This is not written in stone and we don’t know the exact FMS conditions covering these planes. But as we are free to do what we want on block 30 planes, and no FMS conditions have been longer than 30 years, it is logical to assume that 30 years after receiving the planes, they become free to be played on. This time has passed on all block 30 planes and on few block 40 as well. So by 2025 all block 40 planes will be free to be played on through this logic.
Ismail Demir has repeatedly said that we are capable to modernise all fleet to Ozgur status.
Most likely that if the sale of 40 x f16 and 79 x Kits don’t happen, we will go ahead with the modernisation ourselves.
The 79 kits we want to purchase only covers the newest planes of the fleet. Our intention is to modernise the rest ourselves anyway.

 

[Crush716]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573384000525275136

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573384000525275136

Have they got Germany's consent?
Otherwise they will either block it or concede to sell them provided they are not used against Greece or in Northern Syria.
They blocked 48 typhoon sale of UK to Saudi Arabia on the basis of Kaşıkci murder.
Another method of sale needs to be found. RR producing engines in Turkey without German parts. And TUSAŞ assembling parts produced in House or imported directly from Preston UK.
We should not touch anything German for defence products.

 

[Rodeo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573384000525275136

This back and forth fighter diplomacy needs to be over, asap. Am I the only one who finds it very demeaning?

 

[Ecderha]

This back and forth fighter diplomacy needs to be over, asap. Am I the only one who finds it very demeaning?

usa and puppets like france and germany start using this new trend shit "back and forth fighter diplomacy".
Turkiye got lied and at present days Turkiye doing the same shit with them "back and forth fighter diplomacy".

In reality WEST did NOT change the Embargo and CAATSA against Turkiye.
In reality Turkiye going on own plan and own fighter.

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575589357594890240

Are Turkish pilots this crazy!!

Fck me they have to be true daredevils for going this low.

 

[Ripley]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575589357594890240

Are Turkish pilots this crazy!!

Fck me they have to be true daredevils for going this low.

Beautifully choreographed fly pass and I think the ship speed is either stop or dead slow ahead (ready to be corrected)
Amazing flight skill nevertheless

 

[bisbis]

It is a blessing of Allah for Türkiye that the USA does not sell F 35 agent aircraft to Türkiye due to the purchase of S400 ads.

In the same way, I wish that the American f 16 sales to Turkey will not occur.

Mr. İsmail Demir said, "We modernize our aircraft with our own means"

I think the best way is to go with Özgür Modernization Project + Murad Aesa radar.

Redapple Blok2 and Mmu are enough for us. In fact, I think even the Red Apple would be enough on its own.

 

[Radonsider]

It is a blessing of Allah for Türkiye that the USA does not sell F 35 agent aircraft to Türkiye due to the purchase of S400 ads.

In the same way, I wish that the American f 16 sales to Turkey will not occur.

Mr. İsmail Demir said, "We modernize our aircraft with our own means"

I think the best way is to go with Özgür Modernization Project + Murad Aesa radar.

Redapple Blok2 and Mmu are enough for us. In fact, I think even the Red Apple would be enough on its own.

You are also right in your point, just like the ones who say we need new jets.

The problem is we don't know what TurAF wants.
Maybe their needs at this point is stealth aircraft, then buying new jets won't make much sense as we won't be getting stealth aircraft with buying one.

If it is having something instant, that's also not possible because of production queues and time to adapt to new platform, buying new aircraft at this point will result in delivery times near 2028 (and some more years to adapt into the new platform), this makes me understand why they want F-16V or none of them, because buying them won't add TurAF anything, delivery times of jets that will be bought in numbers around 24-48 will be delivered and used around 2030, this date is around when TF-X can be introduced into service, even with a 2 year delay.


In a way, TurAF will get more firepower from Turkish systems until TF-X arrives, Akıncı for ground pounding, newer UAV Early warning aircraft, Kızılelma for BVR and deepstrike missions, where stealth will be pretty useful (and it will probably the best BVR platform we are going to have until TF-X arrives) F-16s for Multirole, Hürjet light combat jet version, same with how FA-50 is used in many airforces today.

This is why I support getting F-16Vs, they can be delivered easily (not the 40 new aircraft) by sending mod kits to TAI, which will allow us to modernize Block 50s which we can't ourselves (US won't allow it) while remaining Block 30s and Block 40s will be upgradeable near future, getting the F-16V will result in nearly all of F-16 fleet to get AESA radars when coupled with Özgür.


That's exactly why I think buying EF, Rafale, Gripen or any other aircraft is a waste, production times, time to make them being used, training staff, ensuring you will be able to use without foreign pressure etc.


What we should focus is building new tankers from 330s, buying/renting cargo aircraft, new AWACS from jets and UAVs, HALE intelligince UAV platforms, more air defence capability, mainly Siper and having more EIRS radar, producing more standoff munitions and ballistic missiles/TRLG series, more EW coverage, producing more munitions.


It is not like this is the first time Greece had better jets than Turkey, and doing the things I have said, we can still be on top

 

[Radonsider]

You are also right in your point, just like the ones who say we need new jets.

The problem is we don't know what TurAF wants.
Maybe their needs at this point is stealth aircraft, then buying new jets won't make much sense as we won't be getting stealth aircraft with buying one.

If it is having something instant, that's also not possible because of production queues and time to adapt to new platform, buying new aircraft at this point will result in delivery times near 2028 (and some more years to adapt into the new platform), this makes me understand why they want F-16V or none of them, because buying them won't add TurAF anything, delivery times of jets that will be bought in numbers around 24-48 will be delivered and used around 2030, this date is around when TF-X can be introduced into service, even with a 2 year delay.


In a way, TurAF will get more firepower from Turkish systems until TF-X arrives, Akıncı for ground pounding, newer UAV Early warning aircraft, Kızılelma for BVR and deepstrike missions, where stealth will be pretty useful (and it will probably the best BVR platform we are going to have until TF-X arrives) F-16s for Multirole, Hürjet light combat jet version, same with how FA-50 is used in many airforces today.

This is why I support getting F-16Vs, they can be delivered easily (not the 40 new aircraft) by sending mod kits to TAI, which will allow us to modernize Block 50s which we can't ourselves (US won't allow it) while remaining Block 30s and Block 40s will be upgradeable near future, getting the F-16V will result in nearly all of F-16 fleet to get AESA radars when coupled with Özgür.


That's exactly why I think buying EF, Rafale, Gripen or any other aircraft is a waste, production times, time to make them being used, training staff, ensuring you will be able to use without foreign pressure etc.


What we should focus is building new tankers from 330s, buying/renting cargo aircraft, new AWACS from jets and UAVs, HALE intelligince UAV platforms, more air defence capability, mainly Siper and having more EIRS radar, producing more standoff munitions and ballistic missiles/TRLG series, more EW coverage, producing more munitions.


It is not like this is the first time Greece had better jets than Turkey, and doing the things I have said, we can still be on top

There is also diversity advantage in our side, Greek jets will always be reliant on their radars and their squadrons for SEAD/DEAD and ground attack.
It is not hard to think that these will be done by UCAVs and E-7T in our side, drastically increasing the aircraft number count that can fight enemy aircraft.

For example, appointing even around 50 aircraft for these missions on Greek side will be drastic for them.

This diversity problem for them will increase when Kızılelma and Hurjet (and others) arrive

And I also think "the jet problem" is kind of exaggerated by some airforce members, they make it look like: No jets or we will lose the war 1!1!1!1!!

 

[Altay2071]

This back and forth fighter diplomacy needs to be over, asap. Am I the only one who finds it very demeaning?

I agree. US won't sell us any f16. They will keep us waiting and waiting even the senate approves it. Our planners and the admimistration failed there big time. They can't get any Eurofighter either. Only way is for us to modernize f16s ourselves quickly and operationalize 100s of Mius. The time is coming when we will need to make significant concessions both to Greece and in Syria. But Türkiye will survive without Agais and east med. It will also survive with PKK in north Syria. We are at a crossroads and everything will be worse.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Even if we modernise all our F16’s to Ozgur status with Aesa radar, there will be a shortfall of plane numbers.
Remember we bought 240 F16 planes in total to start with. Then at that time we had 54 Phantom Terminators with 2.5 Mach speed and 18000m flight ceiling. That meant we had 294 fighter jets in our inventory.
Due to diminishing numbers of the fleet through the years we purchased 30 more f16s to bring numbers up to an acceptable level. Today we are left with 230 planes. There will be accidents and planes being lost. As they are getting older, it is expected to lose a certain number of these planes. We need at least 40 new planes to make up the numbers in order to keep our airforce as a viable deterrent.
F16V70 is the ideal choice. Because we already have the same make albeit slightly older versions. from logistics and training point of view it is a no brainier to go for the F16V70.
But in reality, although powered by a smaller GE-f414 engine, Gripen has got a lot more teeth than V70.
1. The new GaN based 1000 module Aesa radar is much more potent and gives Gripen a big advantage.
2. It has an excellent IRST sensor (new V70 has it too)
3. It has state of the art ramjet powered Meteor a2a missiles.
4. It is cheap.
5. it costs 4700 US dollars per hour to fly it.
6. It can land at short runways including roads.
7. It is cheaper to maintain.
We need an agreement like Atak-T129 with the Swedes where the engines are license manufactured at TEI, and the planes assembled at Tusas. 80-100 planes can be considered.

https://www.defenceiq.com/content-auto-download/5b04b95f97533d72c14ff28a

 

[Heartbang]

Even if we modernise all our F16’s to Ozgur status with Aesa radar, there will be a shortfall of plane numbers.
Remember we bought 240 F16 planes in total to start with. Then at that time we had 54 Phantom Terminators with 2.5 Mach speed and 18000m flight ceiling. That meant we had 294 fighter jets in our inventory.
Due to diminishing numbers of the fleet through the years we purchased 30 more f16s to bring numbers up to an acceptable level. Today we are left with 230 planes. There will be accidents and planes being lost. As they are getting older, it is expected to lose a certain number of these planes. We need at least 40 new planes to make up the numbers in order to keep our airforce as a viable deterrent.
F16V70 is the ideal choice. Because we already have the same make albeit slightly older versions. from logistics and training point of view it is a no brainier to go for the F16V70.
But in reality, although powered by a smaller GE-f414 engine, Gripen has got a lot more teeth than V70.
1. The new GaN based 1000 module Aesa radar is much more potent and gives Gripen a big advantage.
2. It has an excellent IRST sensor (new V70 has it too)
3. It has state of the art ramjet powered Meteor a2a missiles.
4. It is cheap.
5. it costs 4700 US dollars per hour to fly it.
6. It can land at short runways including roads.
7. It is cheaper to maintain.
We need an agreement like Atak-T129 with the Swedes where the engines are license manufactured at TEI, and the planes assembled at Tusas. 80-100 planes can be considered.

https://www.defenceiq.com/content-auto-download/5b04b95f97533d72c14ff28a

time to test their sincerity and request immediate delivery of aircraft

 

[Glass🚬]

Typhoon is the wae to go. the americans are simply to unreliable and integrating into a whole new ecosystem might have big costs at the start but its better then to deal with that now then in a couple of years, it was btw already clear that they wont give us the f-35 in 2016 with their open support for the pkk and the coupists and now they are supporting the greeks. Good thing is the pkk and coupists are almost destroyed and once we dealed with greece there isnt much they will be able to support in and around Türkiye anymore lel.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576203681237970944

 

[Fairon]

Even if we modernise all our F16’s to Ozgur status with Aesa radar, there will be a shortfall of plane numbers.
Remember we bought 240 F16 planes in total to start with. Then at that time we had 54 Phantom Terminators with 2.5 Mach speed and 18000m flight ceiling. That meant we had 294 fighter jets in our inventory.
Due to diminishing numbers of the fleet through the years we purchased 30 more f16s to bring numbers up to an acceptable level. Today we are left with 230 planes. There will be accidents and planes being lost. As they are getting older, it is expected to lose a certain number of these planes. We need at least 40 new planes to make up the numbers in order to keep our airforce as a viable deterrent.
F16V70 is the ideal choice. Because we already have the same make albeit slightly older versions. from logistics and training point of view it is a no brainier to go for the F16V70.
But in reality, although powered by a smaller GE-f414 engine, Gripen has got a lot more teeth than V70.
1. The new GaN based 1000 module Aesa radar is much more potent and gives Gripen a big advantage.
2. It has an excellent IRST sensor (new V70 has it too)
3. It has state of the art ramjet powered Meteor a2a missiles.
4. It is cheap.
5. it costs 4700 US dollars per hour to fly it.
6. It can land at short runways including roads.
7. It is cheaper to maintain.
We need an agreement like Atak-T129 with the Swedes where the engines are license manufactured at TEI, and the planes assembled at Tusas. 80-100 planes can be considered.

https://www.defenceiq.com/content-auto-download/5b04b95f97533d72c14ff28a

On paper yes but in reality there will be a couple of problems.

How long do you think will it take Sweden to start problems with the spare parts? Gripen also has lot of parts coming from US, France, Germany etc. Will they provide them any time we need? We need to keep happy all of the countries that provide parts to Sweden.

And the Meteor missile. Yes it is a very good missile but how much do they allow us to buy and that is if they sell us in the first place. They probably treat us as how they treat Egypt.

Gripen is a good aircraft but it will cause too much trouble for us.

Any project that involves Sweden is a high risk project in my opinion. We need to keep the cooperation as minimum as possible.

 

[Khagan1923]

Typhoon is the wae to go. the americans are simply to unreliable and integrating into a whole new ecosystem might have big costs at the start but its better then to deal with that now then in a couple of years, it was btw already clear that they wont give us the f-35 in 2016 with their open support for the pkk and the coupists and now they are supporting the greeks. Good thing is the pkk and coupists are almost destroyed and once we dealed with greece there isnt much they will be able to support in and around Türkiye anymore lel.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576203681237970944

This idiocracy of these people knows no bounds. Turkey doesn't need the F-16 to bomb pkk/ypg in syria. Also without the F-16 being given to Turkey without any constraints it is more likely that Sweden and Finland will wait years before they can join NATO. Also "F-16s will not be used against Greece." Do they ask the same of Greece when they sell them shit? Or is it okay for greece to violate the actual airspace of Turkey multiple times per day and cry victim when Turkey retaliates?

Are these idiots even aware of the advancements made by Turkey in the arms industry? But then again they also thought the US gave us ToT to develop our drones and demanded an investigation into it by the Pentagon just to be told that the US has nothing to do with it.

Maybe they should continue being to ignorant about our progress. The bigger the suprise face when they see TF-2000, TF-X, Hürjet, Kizilelma and many more projects.