TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Aqerdf]

TurAF's F-4 fleets are empty. F-16s will be there for another 20 years at least i think.

Soo, 150 Kaan ?

 

[Nutuk]

But here is the crux of the matter, we need at least 100 -150 KAANs and at least
200 -300 fighter aircraft of a smaller type as a single jet configuration that is also GEN 5.

According to whom? Did the air force specify such numbers?

Drones are strategic platforms, you can't win dogfights with them, nor can you react very quickly to circumstances like a human pilot, let alone complex flight maneuvers, just the latency between the pilot giving the commands at the ground station on the joystick and the actual transmission of the signals to the drone is not milliseconds but seconds.

When was the last fighter jet downed in a dogfight? Turkiye shot 1 Russian, 2 Syrian jets (none of them in a dogfight). We should realize that warfare has changed, we go to 5th generation and in 5th generation 2 things are very important: 1 Stealth, 2 networked. Drones will be the front fighters with the AI enabled decision making, no pilot can match up in reaction time.

And even if the developers talk about A.I., these are ultimately just automisms in the software; if situation A happens, react with algorithm B.
These are nothing more than scripts that ultimately run in a series of processes that then branch off depending on the situation.

And you think in war situation the same processes and rules will count as in peacetime? It'll be more like shoot first ask later

But independent autonomous thinking, and creativity in a fight, all countries in the world are still at least 100 years away from being able to produce a Terminator.

Terminator is a movie thing, but you'd be surprised how far military already is in AI

As a NATO member, Turkey is denied sensitive weapons where even a country like Saudi Arabia receives them.

NATO is more a client binding organization, and Turkiye is more and more not a client anymore, playing outside the rules and restrictions that NATO (read USA) want's to impose

 

[TheInsider]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

It will take 10 years to reach that amount with a production rate of 2 per month. TAI will increase the production rate if another country makes additional orders. 4 per month is somewhat easy to achieve. It will be difficult to increase the production rate further as TEI will have to deliver 16 engines per month Aselsan 8 Burfis suite per month for a production rate of 8 Kaans per month.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

Yes and thats low number since Turkiye spent alot of money and years to build its national fighter but still some here thinks 150 KAANs are enough for Turkiye .
For 100 fighters Turkiye never would spent so much for suxh number of fighters , I think 300 KAANS are goos number + 200 heavily modernised f16
500 fighters and 2500 total aircraft + 1000 Male Drones thats what Turkiye needs for airforce . And dont think Turkiye cant buipd them , same was thought for china for its J20 and from west sources China is reaching 180-200 J20 planes production per year surpassing or approching USA production of F35 .So Turkiye aslo can produce 50 Kaans per year

 

[uçuyorum]

TurAF wants to buy 240+ Kaans.

It will take 10 years to reach that amount with a production rate of 2 per month. TAI will increase the production rate if another country makes additional orders. 4 per month is somewhat easy to achieve.

I mean sure they want but operating 240 Kaan and operating 240 F16 are monumentally different. Both regular cost and effort for maintenance etc will make that very difficult

 

[TheInsider]

I mean sure they want but operating 240 Kaan and operating 240 F16 are monumentally different. Both regular cost and effort for maintenance etc will make that very difficult

TurAF will continue to buy Kaan till 2040 and probably even further. F-16s will be retired starting from block 30s. Block 30s won't see 2040.

 

[uçuyorum]

TurAF will continue to buy Kaan till 2040 and probably even further. F-16s will be retired starting from block 30s. Block 30s won't see 2040.

Hope they have a B plan to recycle MURAD, those will still be relatively new by then.

 

[Ecderha]

According to whom? Did the air force specify such numbers?



When was the last fighter jet downed in a dogfight? Turkiye shot 1 Russian, 2 Syrian jets (none of them in a dogfight). We should realize that warfare has changed, we go to 5th generation and in 5th generation 2 things are very important: 1 Stealth, 2 networked. Drones will be the front fighters with the AI enabled decision making, no pilot can match up in reaction time.



And you think in war situation the same processes and rules will count as in peacetime? It'll be more like shoot first ask later





Terminator is a movie thing, but you'd be surprised how far military already is in AI




NATO is more a client binding organization, and Turkiye is more and more not a client anymore, playing outside the rules and restrictions that NATO (read USA) want's to impose

"NATO is more a client binding organization" !
I would like to expand this in order to enlighten people. It start with NATO client thing for products, but the main thing power is that " you as client MUST OBEY what usa say".
If you NOT PAY as client and you NOT OBEY usa then you are punished.
1. embargoes
2. pointing that you acting as dictator
3. blaming you for any event which will happened after
4. attacking you on Any Opportunity which will time provide.
5. Removing you out of any possible events, programs, meetings, intelligent sharing
6. They initiate founds, support, protection of you Enemies
7. They use any terrorists or owned traitors to initiate terrorist bomb attacks or "Coups" in you Country
8. They define you on any military, political, social meetings in door or outside
9. This I like the MOST -> "They really play GOOD , BAD person known political strategy ".
Example: They say on media something like this "We are always saying we are understanding and support Turkiye. It is our valuable partner, but they at moment pushing us and Do NOT GIVE us other Choice ".
Bla Bla Bla............... non stop.

But facts remain They systematically executing deeds to punish Turkiye to OBEY

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Turkish Airforce by year :
2030 - 240 f16 - 20 kaan
2031 - 240 f16 - 40 kaan
2032 - 240 f16 - 80 kaan
2033 - 200 f16 - 130 kaan
2034 - 150 f16 - 180 kaan
2035 - 150 f16 - 230 kaan
2036 - 120 f16 - 280 kaan
2037 - 120 f16 - 330 kaan
2038 - 120 f16 - 350 kaan

 

[I_Love_F16]

Wouldn’t 240 + Kaan’s be outrageously expensive for the Turkish Air Force ? Let’s get real, we’re talking about a 5th generation fighter jet here. Acquiring, operating and maintaining such an aircraft would be fundamentally different than it is for a Block 30 F-16 for example.

 

[DBdev]

Wouldn’t 240 + Kaan’s be outrageously expensive for the Turkish Air Force ? Let’s get real, we’re talking about a 5th generation fighter jet here. Acquiring, operating and maintaining such an aircraft would be fundamentally different than it is for a Block 30 F-16 for example.

Total ownership might be 1.5 times more but lets say fly away price is 100 million for each KAAN like CEO Kotil says. That is half price of course since it is for us. 24 billion USD in 20 years is nothing for a country with 1 trillion dollar GDP.

Besides unlike before money is not going away. We are not getting poorer because of defense spending like Greece and many others. Quite the opposite it is just returning to our other pocket as employment, more economic growth. And by strengthening our defense sector we will eventually earn 10 times more than that by exporting it to countless rich nations that are being embargoed by west. Even Korean fighter is not 5th gen. Russia, China are not selling 5th gens. That just leaves entire planet to Türkiye. Hardly can wait...

 

[Afif]

According to latest Tamil kotil statement, KAAN's unit cost will be higher than initially projected $ 100 millions.

*With total package, even for Turkish domestic purchase KAAN will cost at least $160 millions each. That is around 3.8 billions for the procurement of KAAN and accociated systems each year.

*F-22 flight per hour cost is believed to aroumd $70000 USD. If it is around $ 50000 for KAAN, then Sustainment cost for 250 KAAN fleet will be $ 2.5 billions per year (assuming 200 flight hours per unit each year.)

*Also, we have to keep in mind Turkish Air force has other procurement list, including various types of UAV/UCAV, trainers, helicopters, air lifters, strategic Air defence system, future space technologies and other systems.


Then of course, TurAF is only one service of TAF. Other sister services (Army and Navy) has their own long and extensive procurement list. So, it is not like a walk in the park.

It will certainly require very efficient distribution of resources amd priority management to successfully complete multiple decades long simultaneously ongoing strategic programs along with many other programs with various levels of importance.

 

[Spitfire9]

Total ownership might be 1.5 times more but lets say fly away price is 100 million for each KAAN like CEO Kotil says. That is half price of course since it is for us. 24 billion USD in 20 years is nothing for a country with 1 trillion dollar GDP.

Besides unlike before money is not going away. We are not getting poorer because of defense spending like Greece and many others. Quite the opposite it is just returning to our other pocket as employment, more economic growth. And by strengthening our defense sector we will eventually earn 10 times more than that by exporting it to countless rich nations that are being embargoed by west. Even Korean fighter is not 5th gen. Russia, China are not selling 5th gens. That just leaves entire planet to Türkiye. Hardly can wait...

Yes, Turkiye looks to be very well placed. I'm not sure how long it will have a virtual monopoly because South Korea may redesign the KF-21 to incorporate an IWB in phase 3 of its programme. Theoretically India's AMCA could also be available but nearer 2040, I think.

As you say, the entire planet will be open to TAI KAAN (subject to US approval until TAI can offer KAAN with a Turkish engine).

 

[Rodeo]

As you say, the entire planet will be open to TAI KAAN (subject to US approval until TAI can offer KAAN with a Turkish engine).

KAAN is not fifth gen unless it's offered with national engines. And you can be sure that there won't be any export possibilities with the American engines. We'd be lucky even if we could acquire them for our own air force.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Anything over 200 KAAN is simply overkill, even the USA only has just under 200 F-22 Raptors as air superiority fighters.
Turkey urgently needs a single jet variant of the KAAN and preferably as a Delta Canard configuration.
150 - 200 KAAN (Twin Turbojet) & 300 KAAN S (Delta Carand Single Turbojet) with the option of a further 100 units, for less than 80-90 million US dollars a unit. plus 100 F-16s from its own inventory (the remaining F-16 spare parts stocks)
In addition, there are easily 500-600 drones of various types. That's quite enough for Turkey as a deterrent. We are not the USA, China or Russia that we need over 1000 fighter planes, we neither have the money nor is our economy stable enough to maintain something like that.
The Russians, for example, also have over 1000 fighter planes, but more than half of them are no good, as the war in Ukraine has more or less proven, they are just garbage, the only ones that are really any good are probably the newer SU 35S & SU 57.

 

[Spitfire9]

Turkey urgently needs a single jet variant of the KAAN and preferably as a Delta Canard configuration.
150 - 200 KAAN (Twin Turbojet) & 300 KAAN S (Delta Carand Single Turbojet) with the option of a further 100 units

I suppose that working off Su-75 - populating it with Turkish avionics, integrating Turkish weapons and later installing a Turkish engine is out of the question? Sukhoi appears not to be able to generate interest in this low cost (less than $50 million) aircraft, so could be open to an offer.

 

[DBdev]

Guys do not compare costs of mr. "I must display my might all over the world" America with us.
They are flying F-22s even over the Syria for f. sake. You won't burn jet fuel or need engine other repairs if you keep them in the secure hangars for a "rainy day" while Akinci, Kizilelma, Anka 3 etc with Murad AESA radar and 200km BVR missiles patrol the skies for price of peanuts.

I bet when we get hydrogen bombs there will be bunch of people crying about costs of those too. Sheesh, learn to accept success and happiness. Even sky will not be the limit for us soon.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let us get one thing straight!
No military equipment has any commercial value. It is a non productive investment.

A. If you buy the military equipment from abroad, you are spending your foreign reserves and buying something that is going to sit idle and be a burden on your economy.
If you buy a commercial truck from abroad, at least you will use it to carry stuff to help the economy. You will employ people to operate it.

B. If you manufacture the military equipment, you are saving your foreign reserves. However you are spending your tax income to manufacture a piece of equipment that will not contribute to your economy. You are employing a workforce and creating an ecosystem with your tax payers’ money. It is definitely better than point A though.

C. If you sell your military equipment to an export customer, then you have maximum input. You have actually added to your foreign currency reserves. You have created work for your workforce with somebody else’s money. You have made that buyer dependent on you. If we can sell half of what we spend on our military equipment than we are doing more than OK.

Having clarified that ; The KAAN fighter is cheap at a unit price of 100 million dollars, for the quantity we will be building and the technological level of excellence we are expecting from it. As a comparison, the Typhoon fighter jet is at least 50% more expensive to buy.
Having said that, I doubt we will ever really know how much TuAF will pay for them. That is the case with Typhoon too. Qatar paid best part of 8 billion dollars with today’s money for 24 Typhoons (5 billion Pounds in 2018) including training, parts and ammo. (Spain bought last year, 20 Typhoons for 2.1 billion dollars)

TuAF won’t be buying these planes all in one go. After 2028 they will start adding them to our inventory at a financially manageable gradual rate. Hopefully our GDP and economy in the early 30’s will be a great deal better and bigger than today’s.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I suppose that working off Su-75 - populating it with Turkish avionics, integrating Turkish weapons and later installing a Turkish engine is out of the question? Sukhoi appears not to be able to generate interest in this low cost (less than $50 million) aircraft, so could be open to an offer.

It is unlikely that the USA would ever allow this, one must not forget that the TAI KAAN is a distant twin of the F-35, with the difference that it will still be slightly inferior in terms of level.
Only with block 20 or 30 will it possibly equal or slightly surpass the F-35.
The F-22 Raptor is uncatchable in terms of performance and technology it is very unlikely that KAAN as GEN 5 will ever overtake it in later blocks.
The F-22 is absolute top secret and is secretly upgraded in regular cycles.
I would not be surprised if it is already scratching the threshold of GEN 6 as GEN 5.5+ fighter aircraft.
Not even the closest allies like Great Britain & Israel get the jet let alone insight into the technology.

Turkey has gained deep knowledge about the F-35 as a co-developer of the F-35 and through the knowledge of the F16 under license and F-35 from the beginning to the end of the development they have gained a lot of technological knowledge.
The US will stop this, as you can see by indirectly supporting Project KAAN by providing GE F110 129 Engines even if they are produced under license.
I think it makes no sense to sanction everything, but strangely enough not the Engines.

Because the Russians had already agreed to provide Turkey with an engine with 3D vector thrust, including technology transfer, in return for which the Russians would receive in-depth knowledge of the aircraft, which is very similar to the F-35. This is of course total speculation on my part, but if you understand the context then you can understand a lot.
Why the USA wants the Russians out of it.

 

[Nutuk]

Kaan will be levels over F22, yes F22 was top notch but do not forget it is 30 year old tech. Even the best of the best is losing value and technological advantage over time. Even me I am not in my prime years anymore!!!