TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[IC3M@N FX]

Kaan will be levels over F22, yes F22 was top notch but do not forget it is 30 year old tech. Even the best of the best is losing value and technological advantage over time. Even me I am not in my prime years anymore!!!

I don't want to argue and insult you, but in this case you write nonsense.
The F-22 has been upgraded countless times, secretly and without informing the public.
Its radar is top secret, its avionics are top secret, even the material, the engine and the radar absorbing material are top secret.
That's the whole point of secrecy, the F-22 Raptor is more advanced in all respects.
If anything, you've gotten minor messages and read between the lines that it's getting even newer Hardware, Software, AVIONIK, etc.

USAF, Lockheed Plan F-22 Updates To Feed Next-Gen Fighter Tech | Aviation Week Network

The U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin are beginning the second phase of yearly iterative updates to the F-22 fleet.

aviationweek.com

Even the TAI KAAN is based on F-22 Raptor a 30 year old fighter jet design, you can't miss that.

So you should be slow with your assertion. This is the first stealth fighter jet that Turkey has produced,
So while the USA has produced countless airplanes before that, including stealth bombers and fighters, and has been doing so for 90 years, we are still in our infancy.
Also in the area of space research and materials & alloys we are still at the beginning where the US is researching with supercomputers & quantum computers for even newer materials & alloys, we have just started researching radar absorbing material and are in the prototype phase for testing.
All in all, the USA is at least 20 years ahead of us, we are not even in a position to produce modern computer chips, let alone in a modern production facility, which is the Achilles heel of any high technology, even in military technology.
You talk about the TAI KAAN outperforming the F-22 Raptor.

If you mean the Raptor Block 0 for 30 years ago, I agree with you, but today's F-22 Raptor has very little in common with the old Raptor.
After all, you can't compare an F-16 Block 0 from the early 80s with the F-16 Block 70 of today, which is a completely new aircraft except for the basic design.

 

[Merzifonlu]

The chief engineer of the Hürjet project said that in the Armed Hürjet version, the drone officer who will sit behind the pilot will manage the KE and Anka-3 drones. If this happens, I think the Armed Hürjet can no longer be considered a LIFT aircraft. Transforms into a heavyweight fighter plane.

If EF and/or F-16 Block 70 cannot be purchased or the parts to modernize the F16s do not come from the USA, then I think we should make our Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds capable of menaging drones. There is no need to wait for the Armed Hürjet for this purpose. We must now train our core staff who will implement this concept.

In all of my thoughts on our next generation air fleet, Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine (KE+Anka-3) drones are the focus. (Kaan+TF-35k+Bürfis) projects are not the focus. If Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine drones and the Armed Hürjet that can manage them enter mass production around 2028, we will tear the shroud. Because, i) either with the Peace Eagle, ii) with the Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds, iii) or with the Armed Hürjet, we will be managing them from the air with artificial intelligence support.

In this way, IMO we have an air fleet that is extremely effective and cheap. Otherwise, we are in very, very serious trouble, just so you know. The question that needs to be asked now is this: If we are going to put the Armed Hürjet into mass production, where will we find its engine?

 

[DBdev]

The chief engineer of the Hürjet project said that in the Armed Hürjet version, the drone officer who will sit behind the pilot will manage the KE and Anka-3 drones. If this happens, I think the Armed Hürjet can no longer be considered a LIFT aircraft. Transforms into a heavyweight fighter plane.

If EF and/or F-16 Block 70 cannot be purchased or the parts to modernize the F16s do not come from the USA, then I think we should make our Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds capable of menaging drones. There is no need to wait for the Armed Hürjet for this purpose. We must now train our core staff who will implement this concept.

In all of my thoughts on our next generation air fleet, Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine (KE+Anka-3) drones are the focus. (Kaan+TF-35k+Bürfis) projects are not the focus. If Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine drones and the Armed Hürjet that can manage them enter mass production around 2028, we will tear the shroud. Because, i) either with the Peace Eagle, ii) with the Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds, iii) or with the Armed Hürjet, we will be managing them from the air with artificial intelligence support.

In this way, IMO we have an air fleet that is extremely effective and cheap. Otherwise, we are in very, very serious trouble, just so you know. The question that needs to be asked now is this: If we are going to put the Armed Hürjet into mass production, where will we find its engine?

If we have problems with Americans about engines of Hürjet and can't get replacements from any other place for some silly reason, we will still have Akinci with commercial, easily available heavy duty engines, unlimited BVR missiles, cruise missiles and AESA. So no worries our future is looking very bright.

Satellite communication is at the speed of light. There is less than 1 second delay. Therefore whatever sensor, radar information etc. you were going to feed to the cockpit screen of Hürjet and Kaan can also be instantly beamed up to the satellite, then down to our remote pilots and vice versa. Let our fighter pilots experience VR cockpit of KAAN from their vacation spots on Maldives.

When Kizilelma matures, we wouldn't need manned fighters, remote pilots even for dogfights . That means taking more risks as well as being more aggressive while defending our national interests without any compromise. All over the globe.

This is our new reality not fantasy.

 

[TheInsider]

According to latest Tamil kotil statement, KAAN's unit cost will be higher than initially projected $ 100 millions.

*With total package, even for Turkish domestic purchase KAAN will cost at least $160 millions each. That is around 3.8 billions for the procurement of KAAN and accociated systems each year.

*F-22 flight per hour cost is believed to aroumd $70000 USD. If it is around $ 50000 for KAAN, then Sustainment cost for 250 KAAN fleet will be $ 2.5 billions per year (assuming 200 flight hours per unit each year.)

*Also, we have to keep in mind Turkish Air force has other procurement list, including various types of UAV/UCAV, trainers, helicopters, air lifters, strategic Air defence system, future space technologies and other systems.


Then of course, TurAF is only one service of TAF. Other sister services (Army and Navy) has their own long and extensive procurement list. So, it is not like a walk in the park.

It will certainly require very efficient distribution of resources amd priority management to successfully complete multiple decades long simultaneously ongoing strategic programs along with many other programs with various levels of importance.

That is the initial cost of the prototypes. 20 Kaans which will be delivered in 2028. Similar to other fighter projects, costs will go well under 100 million per fighter as the production ramps up for the Turkish needs and exports. Turkiye won't sell those fighters cheap for international customers though.

Lifecycle costs associated with the Kaan are a lot cheaper than the F-35.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Without a functioning semiconductor industry, Turkey can be cut off very quickly.
Turkey has no chips apart from an open source chip called Cakil in 45nm, otherwise there is nothing.
So if tomorrow the USA & Co decide to impose a full embargo, for whatever reason, then without computer chips and circuits the Turkish industry is nothing and will turn into Iran 2.0

 

[Aqerdf]

This was argued many times by our defence enthusiast circles.

General consensus was finding chips will not be a much problem, needed sizes are not that small, there are multiple producers in Americas, Asia and Europe. So multiple sources are there.

I think main problem is espionage and sabotage. Not finding chips for defence industry.

For that we need to produce by ourself imo, yes.

 

[Aqerdf]

That is the initial cost of the prototypes. 20 Kaans which will be delivered in 2028. Similar to other fighter projects, costs will go well under 100 million per fighter as the production ramps up for the Turkish needs and exports. Turkiye won't sell those fighters cheap for international customers though.

Lifecycle costs associated with the Kaan are a lot cheaper than the F-35.

Too early to talk and it will be an amateur speculation from my side but in a world where Typhoon, Rafale and even Gripen having same (-or little bit less with hair size ) price with F-35, there is no chance that Kaan will have less purchase price, at least for export.

It will have more high-tech composite usage per kg, more titanium usage per kg, more t/r module per count, more e/o sensor per count and two high power modern engine instead of one. It's designed as 21-meter 5th gen monster, i like to remember this myself from time to time.

Plus more altitude, supercruise capability, etc.

And it would still be a bargain, if you couldn't/won't buy F-35 or want to supplement it.

(If mentioned specs are became reality, hopefully).

 

[Fatman17]

Final countdown: Türkiye's 5th-gen fighter set to make maiden flight

Türkiye's defense and aviation sector is expected to experience a historic moment in the upcoming week as the first flight of the domestically...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[BaburKhan]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

 

[BaburKhan]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

This Article underline the importance of Rafale Long Range Meteor BVR Missile as well the Advantage in EW. Also TurAF need in the first stages of War to avoid losses until Rafale need maintenance.

It looks not that the West will deliver a modern State 4 or 4.5 Generation Fighter Aircraft until Kaan is ready for serial Production.

I also expect Hürjet will be produced first as lead - in Trainer, that mean no light Attack Variant in the beginning.

Also KE and Anka 3 need the completion of TF-6000 and TF-10000, this will also take some Years.

Russian Aircraft like SU-35 and SU-57 are for some Reason no Option. Could be an Advanced JF-17 Variant with Murad AESA ,Özgür, GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN Missiles and other indigenous Weapon Systems an alternative?

Turkey Contemplates China-Pakistan JF-17 "Thunder"?

Turkish exclusion from the F-35 development program and the impediment from acquiring the Eurofighter Typhoon as well as F-16 Block 70 have prompted Turkey to explore the JF-17 "Thunder”, a fighter aircraft jointly-developed by Pakistan and China, as alleged by the local media.

defencesecurityasia.com

 

[Fatman17]

JF17 is just mig 21 We don't need soviet or chinese tech

JF-17C is far more capable than a MiG-21

A PAF JF-17C Block III was landing at the CAC airfield, carrying two PL-10E IIR guided AAMs at the wingtips. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III represents PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's Su-30MKI. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine, a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-5E IR guided or PL-10E IIR guided AAM, SD-10A or PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails), 500/1000lb REK GPS/INS glide bombs, CM-400AKG ASM. An additional hard point is installed underneath the right engine air intake for KG600 ECM or ASELPOD targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of the flight indicated the JF-17C prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward IIR MAWS sensors (RKW2200E?) behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. It has been rumored that Iraqi AF and Azerbaijani AF have showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of JF-17C on December 30, 2020. At least 8 (3Pxx) were on the assembly line, which are powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17C prototype, making it more competitive on the international market. Recent images (January 2022) indicated that the first 8 assembled JF-17Cs (S/N 22-30x) rolled out at PAC. A total of 50 JF-17Cs were reportedly ordered by PAF to replace the remaining F-7PGs.
- Last Updated 8/13/23

 

[cr33pt3d]

I had the chance to attend the paris air show few years back, i guess i'm one of the lucky member here, who had the chance to see, JF 17, Rafale, EF2000, F35, F16 and SU 35 demo flight the same day.
I can tell you one that was flagrant to me, the JF 17 was the least impressive, the plane was slow as fuck compared to others and agility wise it looks more on par with a trainer jet (which i've seen in flight too like M346 or event the YAK 130) than a worthy air fighter.
you might say, dude it was an air show, you can't jump on conclusion ...
i can say at least i have seen in flight, where the plane should expose it's best behaviour and was so poor so slow, turning angle were so large compared to others.

I can't even imagine what help can this jet provide, since even the f16 b30, which i have seen in flight demo seems like a plane from the futur compared to JF17.
i d'ont want be rude to our Pakistani friends, but that was just my experience. i wish jf17 much success, but i don't think it is for us.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

JF-17C is far more capable than a MiG-21

A PAF JF-17C Block III was landing at the CAC airfield, carrying two PL-10E IIR guided AAMs at the wingtips. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III represents PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's Su-30MKI. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine, a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-5E IR guided or PL-10E IIR guided AAM, SD-10A or PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails), 500/1000lb REK GPS/INS glide bombs, CM-400AKG ASM. An additional hard point is installed underneath the right engine air intake for KG600 ECM or ASELPOD targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of the flight indicated the JF-17C prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward IIR MAWS sensors (RKW2200E?) behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. It has been rumored that Iraqi AF and Azerbaijani AF have showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of JF-17C on December 30, 2020. At least 8 (3Pxx) were on the assembly line, which are powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17C prototype, making it more competitive on the international market. Recent images (January 2022) indicated that the first 8 assembled JF-17Cs (S/N 22-30x) rolled out at PAC. A total of 50 JF-17Cs were reportedly ordered by PAF to replace the remaining F-7PGs.
- Last Updated 8/13/23

The J17 is inferior in all respects to an F16 Block 60/70, Rafaele and Eurofighter.
It makes no sense to buy a fighter that is much worse than the listed fighters.
Saudi Arabia & Co, and Greece have F-16s, Rafaeles and Eurofighters.
Iran will probably get S-35, Turkey needs something more useful than J17 fighters.

It could accelerate the Özgur I & II plan, but these are all components that are more or less prototypes that do not have years of validation behind them.
Even if you upgrade all fighters, in 3-4 years you will only have 140-170 F-16s that are really combat capable.
The rest of the F-16s have so much material fatigue that even upgrading the material and reinforcements in different parts of the aircraft will not help at some point the basic structure e.g. endoskeleton/chassis is so fatigued that it is no longer airworthy.

Turkey will not get any new F-16s, Eurofighters or Rafaeles, that's for sure.
One possibility would be to make an agreement with Sweden and the USA to get Saab Gripen E and couple it with Sweden's entry into NATO.
The USA and EU do not deliver a package as combat aircraft, but possibly the Gripen E, which only partially contains US & EU technology.

The last possibility would be the SU-35S Super Flanker as a license build with additional technology transfer and conversion to Turkish hardware/software in the areas of avionics, weapon system and AESA radar.
But that would be the super disaster in NATO, but quite honestly Turkey has not needed NATO for a very long time.
If you supply Saudi Arabia & Co with new fighter planes and weapons systems and accuse Turkey of deficits in the democratic relationship and thus against the NATO & EU norm.
Then it has more to do with having become a direct rival, and the rest is just excuses because Turkey don't want to dance to the tune of the others. Turkey should look for new partners, perhaps China & Russia in Weapon Technology.

 

[Fatman17]

The J17 is inferior in all respects to an F16 Block 60/70, Rafaele and Eurofighter.
It makes no sense to buy a fighter that is much worse than the listed fighters.
Saudi Arabia & Co, and Greece have F-16s, Rafaeles and Eurofighters.
Iran will probably get S-35, Turkey needs something more useful than J17 fighters.

It could accelerate the Özgur I & II plan, but these are all components that are more or less prototypes that do not have years of validation behind them.
Even if you upgrade all fighters, in 3-4 years you will only have 140-170 F-16s that are really combat capable.
The rest of the F-16s have so much material fatigue that even upgrading the material and reinforcements in different parts of the aircraft will not help at some point the basic structure e.g. endoskeleton/chassis is so fatigued that it is no longer airworthy.

Turkey will not get any new F-16s, Eurofighters or Rafaeles, that's for sure.
One possibility would be to make an agreement with Sweden and the USA to get Saab Gripen E and couple it with Sweden's entry into NATO.
The USA and EU do not deliver a package as combat aircraft, but possibly the Gripen E, which only partially contains US & EU technology.

The last possibility would be the SU-35S Super Flanker as a license build with additional technology transfer and conversion to Turkish hardware/software in the areas of avionics, weapon system and AESA radar.
But that would be the super disaster in NATO, but quite honestly Turkey has not needed NATO for a very long time.
If you supply Saudi Arabia & Co with new fighter planes and weapons systems and accuse Turkey of deficits in the democratic relationship and thus against the NATO & EU norm.
Then it has more to do with having become a direct rival, and the rest is just excuses because Turkey don't want to dance to the tune of the others. Turkey should look for new partners, perhaps China & Russia in Weapon Technology.

I am not advocating Turkey to buy the JF-17 the point was raised by a Turkish nember and secondly the JF-17 is superior to any MiG-21 variation as mentioned by another Turkish member. Regards.

 

[Fatman17]

O

I had the chance to attend the paris air show few years back, i guess i'm one of the lucky member here, who had the chance to see, JF 17, Rafale, EF2000, F35, F16 and SU 35 demo flight the same day.
I can tell you one that was flagrant to me, the JF 17 was the least impressive, the plane was slow as fuck compared to others and agility wise it looks more on par with a trainer jet (which i've seen in flight too like M346 or event the YAK 130) than a worthy air fighter.
you might say, dude it was an air show, you can't jump on conclusion ...
i can say at least i have seen in flight, where the plane should expose it's best behaviour and was so poor so slow, turning angle were so large compared to others.

I can't even imagine what help can this jet provide, since even the f16 b30, which i have seen in flight demo seems like a plane from the futur compared to JF17.
i d'ont want be rude to our Pakistani friends, but that was just my experience. i wish jf17 much success, but i don't think it is for us.

Ok and BTW at the previous anatolian eagle the JF-17 scored 6-0 kill ratio v NATO Typhoons. Regards

 

[Cenkcnk]

We are not in NATO for protection from the non-Nato countries, but protection from NATO countries themself.
JF is garbage and I don't think we can acquire vipers or Eurofighters either. But RF planes shouldn't be bought. These planes don't have anything to give us regarding defense capabilities. The only thing that we can buy from them is design and/or know-how. So we can produce our SU planes with a different name with western or domestic avionics and ammunition.

 

[cr33pt3d]

O

Ok and BTW at the previous anatolian eagle the JF-17 scored 6-0 kill ratio v NATO Typhoons. Regards

Once again my intention was not to trash talk the JF 17, i just said that i have seen it flying and can compare directly again others planes i mentioned earlier. that was my visual impression.
but in a WVR or BWR combat scenarios, i don't have any clue of different jet abilities, that's Air forces job. just shared my experience.
So based on your statement we can assume that TurAF has first hand knowledge of the of JF17 abilities, since it has been tested in Anatolian Eagle on various scenarios and yet we wan't F16's and EF2000.
But if JF 17 fit the PAF needs, i'm happy for you guys.

 

[Quasar]

Ok not wise to call JF 17 garbage or anything our advancement should not a reason for arrogance... especially against friendlies

JF 17 is a succesful project for Pakistan. However it is not for us

 

[Fatman17]

We are not in NATO for protection from the non-Nato countries, but protection from NATO countries themself.
JF is garbage and I don't think we can acquire vipers or Eurofighters either. But RF planes shouldn't be bought. These planes don't have anything to give us regarding defense capabilities. The only thing that we can buy from them is design and/or know-how. So we can produce our SU planes with a different name with western or domestic avionics and ammunition.

Wish you and TuAF all the best. Turkey is used to western largesse and its difficult to break the habit just like Pakistan with the USA FMS program. We went for the JF-17 out of necessity but not to fill the numbers but to have a fighter which can hold its own v superior adversary.

 

[Fatman17]

Once again my intention was not to trash talk the JF 17, i just said that i have seen it flying and can compare directly again others planes i mentioned earlier. that was my visual impression.
but in a WVR or BWR combat scenarios, i don't have any clue of different jet abilities, that's Air forces job. just shared my experience.
So based on your statement we can assume that TurAF has first hand knowledge of the of JF17 abilities, since it has been tested in Anatolian Eagle on various scenarios and yet we wan't F16's and EF2000.
But if JF 17 fit the PAF needs, i'm happy for you guys.

Exactly and believe me if PAF was offered additional F-16s they would grab them with their eyes closed.