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Bogeyman 

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American pilot about F16 vs F35
He basically says F16 beats F35 in dogfight, but from distance F16 has no chance. A 4th gen fighter jet stands no chance against 5th gen. that's why I am vehemently opposed against purchase of Eurofighter (pure crap)





4th gen fighter stands no chance against F35

But what about Kizilelma vs F35? I really would like to hear stealth assessments from Baykar, how stealth is Kizilelma?
It's not just about F-16 vs F-35, though. There are also land-based early warning radars + passive radars + AWACS etc. Therefore, you cannot create a picture on an issue that concerns Turkey by ignoring the effectiveness of other components of the war. It is also very important which radar is on the F-16s. Apg-86? Or is there AESA radar? Even these details make the F-35 outshine its clear lead.
 

Huelague

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Don't think so, Turkiye shot in the last 10 years 1 Russian and 2 Syrian craft, none of them by dogfight
I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.
 

uçuyorum

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I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.
Absolutely won't be anything like this
 

Nutuk

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In very exceptional cases perhaps but it would be extremely odd since Greeks modernize their F16's with AESA. They'd be stupid to engage our F16's with dogfight
 

Kartal1

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After our brother @Boz shared his concept of a manned Kizilelma I liked it a lot!

1704705353291.png


What would be the future of a 4.5 Gen, low cost, stealth, light attack aircraft for the Turkish Air Forces adapted for carrier operations influenced by HURJET and Kizilelma? I think the concept may be good.

I know we will have a very serious fleet of 5th Gen KAAN, but they are like jewels. I am thinking of something combining stealth, acceptable sensor package, weapons integration and low operating costs that may serve both the Turkish Air Forces, but also be an export oriented product for developing countries that wouldn't be able to afford KAAN or other 5th Gen aircraft, but will be able to afford a modern, but simple package that will have the ability to take on other 4/4.5 Gen non-stealth aircraft. Think it like the future of aircrafts like HURJET, FA-50 and M-346. What do you guys think?
 

Nutuk

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Why not? There is already the concept idea to make Kizilelma twin engine. A cooperation with Tusas to make that drone a twin engined jet fighter with 2x T10000 engines is technically very possible, question is do we still need the pilot, if yes than it could be a smart way
 

boredaf

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I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.
Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"
 

Huelague

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Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"
Suppress the radar is possible by flighing low. Which is easier on water. And of course, you will not use all Fighter Jets at once.
 

uçuyorum

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People who lust about a manned Kızılelma don't understant the point and appeal of the system in the first place. Kızılelma is possible exactly because its unmanned. The moment you try to put a human inside the complexity increases exponentially. You now have to worry about every aspect of keeping a human alive. You need to increase defenses, put systems to support a human, ejection seat, all the testing required, then you end up with big and expensive fighter and it becomes poor man's gripen or something.
 

IC3M@N FX

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Point of having new and capable 4th, or rather 4.5, gen planes is not to have them go against 5th gen planes. 5th gen planes are expensive to produce AND to fly, that's why even US and China is still buying/producing 4th gen planes. When US air force asked the Congress for permission to retire 150 aircraft, neither F-16s nor F-15s were included in that list. You don't need to use an F-35/J-20 for every mission, sometimes an F-15 or J-10 does the job just fine. Why put extra hours on the engine and the frame unnecessarily, and for a high price? Smaller nations that barely have an air force worth mentioning might transition all the way to 5th gen but for nations that have to have a big air force for diverse missions it is neither economical nor logical.


Hürjet is a year or two away from starting its production as a trainer. There isn't even a proper light attack configuration yet, let alone a naval version. It isn't even a naval aircraft, there are multiple parts/systems that would have to be changed for it to be one. And TCG Anadolu itself would have to go through major changes to be able to use Hürjet, hell as it is, it won't even be able to use KE.

And all of these doesn't just take money, it also takes time, resources and manpower. What makes you think that only thing slowing down Hürjet and Özgür project is money? You are making a lot of assumptions based on nothing but it'll all be faster if we just throw money at it. There are only so many designers, engineers and technicians with different expertise that can work on these projects, just as only so many companies, which are also handling other projects.
The Hürjet and TCG Anadolu were not commissioned as a project yesterday, and I think 2-3 years until the first production aircraft is not unrealistic.
The point is that the Hürjet and Özgur I & II project must be completed in the 2-3 years so that we do not lose our clout.
So instead of blocking the budget in the hope that we will get Eurofighters or new F-16s, we should simply forget about both from the outset, we won't get them.
Because I'm sure we're blocking this budget in the hope that we'll get something, because if it comes to a deal, the USA wants additional money as an advance payment for F-16s as a difference to the money they've already received for the F-35.
With the Eurofighter they will demand the same way the EU, they would want at least half of the money for the planes in advance in order to be able to produce them at all.
So instead of blocking the money you should invest it for Hürjet, F-16 Özgur and Anka 3 platform to speed it up even more.
 

Kartal1

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People who lust about a manned Kızılelma don't understant the point and appeal of the system in the first place. Kızılelma is possible exactly because its unmanned. The moment you try to put a human inside the complexity increases exponentially. You now have to worry about every aspect of keeping a human alive. You need to increase defenses, put systems to support a human, ejection seat, all the testing required, then you end up with big and expensive fighter and it becomes poor man's gripen or something.
Kizilelma is a small drone. I am talking something in the size of HURJET. Used Kizilelma only as a reference to the concept of our brother. Think of it like a stealth HURJET.
 

Fuzuli NL

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Kizilelma is a small drone. I am talking something in the size of HURJET. Used Kizilelma only as a reference to the concept of our brother. Think of it like a stealth HURJET.
I don't know what you mean..
KE is larger than Hürjet except for its height.
 

Quasar

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For the sake of preventing any misunderstanding

My lust is for a stealth carrier based MANNED aircraft with F 110, TF 10000 or TF35000... I am of the opinion of Data collected from KE ''design'' can be useful instead of starting from scratch..... the quantitty that we need is not realy that much Or eventhough it is far from perfect Plan A is always there i.e navalized Hürjet

So as you stated ''keeping a human alive'' This is my concern as well, since a stealth carrier based fighter is better suited for the task at hand than a navalized Hürjet

Asking for a stealth carrier based MANNED aircraft in 10 + years shouldnt be such a crazy idea? one way or other it seems inevitable to me 😈
 
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Baryshx

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I started this discussion of drone vs F35, because all nations (who can build it) are rushing now to build stealth "loyal wingman" drones.

The basic idea is of course that these drones fly ahead of the "mothership" 5th or 6th generation fighter jet. They will serve both ways, if they can detect the enemy fighter or drone first the first to release the missile will be at advantage. But even if the drone is shotdown, it may give the mothership time to shoot the missiles and scoot.

So my argument of KE vs F35 is not just a fantasy, it's a quite probable scenario in the short future
This is a good tactic, but the other side will use the same tactic. Radars, sensors, weapons, etc. will come into play here and the better quality will have the advantage.
 

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