TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Nutuk]

Point of having new and capable 4th, or rather 4.5, gen planes is not to have them go against 5th gen planes. 5th gen planes are expensive to produce AND to fly, that's why even US and China is still buying/producing 4th gen planes. When US air force asked the Congress for permission to retire 150 aircraft, neither F-16s nor F-15s were included in that list. You don't need to use an F-35/J-20 for every mission, sometimes an F-15 or J-10 does the job just fine. Why put extra hours on the engine and the frame unnecessarily, and for a high price? Smaller nations that barely have an air force worth mentioning might transition all the way to 5th gen but for nations that have to have a big air force for diverse missions it is neither economical nor logical.

Sure I do not disagree with that, but see US and China buying 4th gen is to support their own industry and that is not a dumb thing to do. Question is who do we support if we chose at this point a 4th gen?

Chosing a Hurjet light fighter would be acceptable just like US and China is doing. Chosing an F16 (albait also there I am in principle against buying new 40 fighters) is logistically seen defendable, but Eurofighter is sheer madness.

 

[uçuyorum]

F35 doesn't even have a useable cannon so ( B and C don't have ir and A has defective cannon) so obviously F16 is gonna be the better dogfighter. But it really doesn't mean anything in practice when you get shot down from 100km.

 

[Nutuk]

F35 doesn't even have a useable cannon so ( B and C don't have ir and A has defective cannon) so obviously F16 is gonna be the better dogfighter. But it really doesn't mean anything in practice when you get shot down from 100km.

This is exactly where the "stealth" factor of 5th generation impacts. See first, shoot first.

Besides dogfights nowadays only occur during training with "friendly" forces. When was the last time a fighter jet was downed in a dogfight?

 

[Cenkcnk]

germany approved Eurofighter sales to KSA.
Let's see what they are gonna do for our request.

 

[Huelague]

Yes I guess so, not my opinion but that of an experienced US pilot.

I am little bit sceptical about that. I think its more the pilot than the jet itself who makes the different. F-16 is a 50! years old jet. They know all their ins and outs. In contrast to the F-35.

 

[Huelague]

We have round about 300 fighter jets. How many do we need in future? If we think on Kaan and our geopolitical expansions.

 

[uçuyorum]

The fact that KSA got eurofighter approval for being buddy buddy with Israel makes me increasingly think that this was a slight to us. Basically teasing us and its even less likely for us to get eurofighters now, as the production lines will have more orders too our 40 won't make a difference now.

 

[Huelague]

Besides dogfights nowadays only occur during training with "friendly" forces. When was the last time a fighter jet was downed in a dogfight?

Greece, Iran, Armenia..if these are possible enemies in the future, dogfights are very likely.

 

[Bogeyman]

American pilot about F16 vs F35
He basically says F16 beats F35 in dogfight, but from distance F16 has no chance. A 4th gen fighter jet stands no chance against 5th gen. that's why I am vehemently opposed against purchase of Eurofighter (pure crap)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1743736171350401516

4th gen fighter stands no chance against F35

But what about Kizilelma vs F35? I really would like to hear stealth assessments from Baykar, how stealth is Kizilelma?

It's not just about F-16 vs F-35, though. There are also land-based early warning radars + passive radars + AWACS etc. Therefore, you cannot create a picture on an issue that concerns Turkey by ignoring the effectiveness of other components of the war. It is also very important which radar is on the F-16s. Apg-86? Or is there AESA radar? Even these details make the F-35 outshine its clear lead.

 

[Nutuk]

Greece, Iran, Armenia..if these are possible enemies in the future, dogfights are very likely.

Don't think so, Turkiye shot in the last 10 years 1 Russian and 2 Syrian craft, none of them by dogfight

 

[Huelague]

Don't think so, Turkiye shot in the last 10 years 1 Russian and 2 Syrian craft, none of them by dogfight

I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.

 

[uçuyorum]

I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.

Absolutely won't be anything like this

 

[Nutuk]

In very exceptional cases perhaps but it would be extremely odd since Greeks modernize their F16's with AESA. They'd be stupid to engage our F16's with dogfight

 

[Kartal1]

After our brother @Boz shared his concept of a manned Kizilelma I liked it a lot!

What would be the future of a 4.5 Gen, low cost, stealth, light attack aircraft for the Turkish Air Forces adapted for carrier operations influenced by HURJET and Kizilelma? I think the concept may be good.

I know we will have a very serious fleet of 5th Gen KAAN, but they are like jewels. I am thinking of something combining stealth, acceptable sensor package, weapons integration and low operating costs that may serve both the Turkish Air Forces, but also be an export oriented product for developing countries that wouldn't be able to afford KAAN or other 5th Gen aircraft, but will be able to afford a modern, but simple package that will have the ability to take on other 4/4.5 Gen non-stealth aircraft. Think it like the future of aircrafts like HURJET, FA-50 and M-346. What do you guys think?

 

[Huelague]

Absolutely won't be anything like this

Ukraine thought same about Russian until its happened.

 

[Nutuk]

Why not? There is already the concept idea to make Kizilelma twin engine. A cooperation with Tusas to make that drone a twin engined jet fighter with 2x T10000 engines is technically very possible, question is do we still need the pilot, if yes than it could be a smart way

 

[Nutuk]

Ukraine thought same about Russian until its happened.

How many dogfights occurred between Ukrainian fighter jets and Russians?

 

[boredaf]

I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.

Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"

 

[Huelague]

How many dogfights occurred between Ukrainian fighter jets and Russians?

I mean regarding a war, not a dogfighting.

 

[Huelague]

Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"

Suppress the radar is possible by flighing low. Which is easier on water. And of course, you will not use all Fighter Jets at once.