TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[boredaf]

You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.

No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.

 

[Windchime]

We have yet to see a render of the militarized Hürjet. Would love to see 80-100 of these.

Imagine:
80 Hürjet
100+ KAAN
same number of Anka 3s
50-60 Kizilelma
+ existing F16 fleet

Current trend for MUMT seems to be 2 UCAVs to one fighter. Considering that some of the ANKA-3s would also be able to be operated from ground as AI and OCA asset, this does seem like a sweet spot. Had Turkiye been subject to stronger adversary airpower, more MIUS would've been required but under current circumstances, TISU seems like a bigger priority.

 

[Windchime]

No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.

Well, then it is what it is. Though they better understand that THK is already one of the biggest AF in the whole of Europe.

 

[uçuyorum]

No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.

We calculate price of concert ticket and number of tickets to find how much it costs randomly but don't calculate how much such things cost. Say we buy 1000 f16 that's like 300 billion usd over like 20 years or so to buy and operate

 

[Scott Summers]

You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.

Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World (by number of Military Aircraft) - Flight International 2022:​

Country	Air Force
United States	5,213
Russia	3,864
China	1,992
India	1,728
Egypt	1,069
North Korea	947
South Korea	905
Pakistan	820
Japan	749
Saudi Arabia	690

It's a scandal that Türkiye and Germany are not even in the Top 10.

Look at those countries Egypt, North Korea, SA etc.

Especially with our TAF and our war history (same for Germany and their Luftstreitkräfte and Luftwaffe).

 

[Windchime]

Top 10 Largest Air Forces in the World (by number of Military Aircraft) - Flight International 2022:​

Country	Air Force
United States	5,213
Russia	3,864
China	1,992
India	1,728
Egypt	1,069
North Korea	947
South Korea	905
Pakistan	820
Japan	749
Saudi Arabia	690

Those numbers include every single aircraft in service, starting from ab initio trainers to SAR helos, transports, other assets etc. its not just fighters.

Again, 800 fighters are just fantasy numbers nowadays. It's not 1960s anymore.

Of course, that's unless you want to go fight Greek Rafales with SF 260 trainer. Have fun with that

 

[boredaf]

Well, then it is what it is. Though they better understand that THK is already one of the biggest AF in the whole of Europe.

Yeah, and best way to go would be to focus on TF-X and drones, Anka-3 and KE, even then, nowhere close to an absurd number like that. Imo, KE will be more air superiority focused, as its supposed to be more agile with its body, while Anka-3 will be mainly used for SEAD-DEAD mission, but we'll see.

 

[Khagan1923]

Throw S400 into the sea were that trash belongs.

Convert the 40 F-16V order into 42 F-35A and 12-16 F-35B

Demand the 6 F-35A being stored are handed over immediately.

Have nice Air Force towards the mid 30s consisting of

48 F-35A
164 F-16 Özgür I-II
79 F-16V Block 70
TF Kaan Block 1 ~20-40
Maybe Hürjet LF ~20-30

as well as the Navy having 12-16 F-35B on Anadolu.

If B is no go than order ~60 F-35A.

my two cents. You are bound to the US either way. If I pay 20 Billion I would rather have a cutting edge jet instead of just the next best thing. Also the tears of certain people would be nice to see.

Some people need to take their heads out of the sand and see the reality we are in. Saying things like F-35 will keep us bound to the US aren't really good arguments when TF Kaan is using americans engines, as well as Hürjet, or you buying new F-16 from the same Americans. Or upgrading your existing fleet with their packages.

The S400 is useless and has no use. Get rid of it.

 

[boredaf]

We calculate price of concert ticket and number of tickets to find how much it costs randomly but don't calculate how much such things cost. Say we buy 1000 f16 that's like 300 billion usd over like 20 years or so to buy and operate

Not to mention, we are not going to find and train that many pilots. Plan should be a manageable number of jets supplemented by Anka-3 and KE.

 

[uçuyorum]

If we make a small number of heavy bombers that could actually be more useful and economical than a large fleet of fighters. Say a single bomber that can like drop dozens of guided munitions in a single sortie and could stay in air for a longer while could prove more optimal. Based on our mission profiles and proximity to operations, fewer planes could then focus on those and fighters can focus on roles only they can fullfil.

 

[Bozan]

US opens F-35 window to Ankara​

Washington proposes Turkey’s conditional return to fighter jet co-production program​

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

US opens F-35 window to Ankara | eKathimerini.com

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

www.ekathimerini.com

Maybe good news. Greece is in panic.

Well if TR is desperate, then Washington can use it to negotiate on behalf of what Washington wants.

Congress can block the delivery at any time, so until that delivery occurs, TR will have to abide by what Washington wants.

Washington is reminding Erdogan

 

[dBSPL]

It is necessary to discuss not the number of aircraft, but the fleet size, organization and combat structure of the air force. It is a fact that the fleet structure has undergone significant changes due to the long delay of the JSF project and some squadrons have been inactivated. Of course, there are other details, especially in relation to the F-4 crash news in past... In the end, as if all these problems were not enough, the F-35 planning had to be completely scrapped.

While the Turkish air force traditionally constitutes the eastern wing of NATO, in terms of national defense, the basic doctrine of the armed forces is based on the ability to sustain an all out war against two countries simultaneously. So yes, we really need a very serious number of combat aircraft, unless we downsize. This is a transitional period in which many political mistakes have been made too and I don't think there is a correct reference to either the past or the future.

If you add the recently inactivated F-4 squadrons to the recent geopolitical developments and risks in the Turkish sphere of influence, I am of the opinion that the Air Force is aiming to have 17-18 or up to 20 combatant (+ combat reconnaissance) squadrons, and even more when indigenous platforms enter mass production. Traditionally, we tend to assume the size of combat squadrons in the Turkish Air Force to be around 20 aircraft kept in combat readiness, but in many cases it can be higher than that. These two basic assuming can also give an approximate, rough idea about potential number of platforms.

I should also add as a note that a new era is about to begin in Turkish aviation. Naval combat aviation. I think everyone agrees that this tendency of the Navy is very obvious. In the next 20 years, this breakthrough on Navy may take the balance-changing effect of national combatant platforms to another level.

 

[Nutuk]

IMO Turkiye should stay far away from F35 as the aircraft is the total opposite of what we want: independence

Even with F16 we'll stay partly dependent on the USA till the 2050ties, with F35 that will become 2080.


If we want quality and quantity we need our own fighter jet not purchased ones, example is there with drones

 

[B_A]

400?



Do not forget that Turkey is working on network-centric warfare, and fighter jets are not the only asset. We are talking about drones of various types ranging from TB-3, ANKA-1/3-4, and Kizilelma that work jointly with the future kAAN. Turkey is operating almost 250 F-16s, and many of them will perhaps be way too old to operate by 2030-2035 ( not sure about the timeframe) which means that the KAAN will be the backbone of the Air force. Even 500, 5-generation fighter jets is a massive number that neither China or Russia has accomplished so far.

Taiwanese had 130 F-16+60 Mirage 2000+130 F-CK-1+some F-5 + 66 F16V(ordered)=400 JET


Chinese had 1400+ 4-generation fighter jets ,their 5-generation fighters just face some problem,finallt they will have 800+5-generation fighters

 

[B_A]

You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.

Even Taiwanese can sustain 300+ Jets at long term.Korean is 400+

Republic of Korea Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In korean and japanese case they had much expensive F-15s

 

[infrared]

"Even Taiwan" bro the currently decreasing gdp difference is only 30 percent.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Even Taiwanese can sustain 300+ Jets at long term.Korean is 400+

Republic of Korea Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In korean and japanese case they had much expensive F-15s

Bro Taiwan has China as an immediate danger threat, with more than 1000+ fighter planes as opponents. They generate their income from the chip industry, especially through TSMC.
USA gives them very high discounts, and help them underhand with maintenance & support, almost the whole electronics world is produced there chip wise.
If Taiwan falls to China, the entire chip industry in the USA & the world will fall into China's hands.
South Korea's opponent is North Korea, which, together with China, also has nuclear weapons. In contrast to Russia, which has the good sense not to use these weapons even in times of war.
North Korea has no inhibitions about using them as a first strike if it were to attack South Korea.
Even the Russians have the fear of God and morals, which the Chinese and North Koreans do not have.
For them, a human life is worth nothing, you only have to see how they treat their own people and now transfer this to foreign people, God save the country that would be attacked by the two countries, the previous war criminals in the world would look more like a joke then.

The location of Turkey with Greece, Russia & Iran as opponents is a joke in comparison.
Iran & Russia dare not attack a NATO country, it would be their death sentence.
That leaves only Greece....and they simply don't have the capacity to keep up in the long term.
The USA won't sponsor them indefinitely just because they get anxiety attacks

 

[B_A]

"Even Taiwan" bro the currently decreasing gdp difference is only 30 percent.

Everyone know our economy is too bad these years and taiwanese were in their best time.In 2013 gdp difference was 45 percent and the projected GDP difference will be 40 percent in 2028

Taiwanese had only less than 1/4 population of us and very aged.We will have at least 2 times GDP much than taiwanese 10 years later.

Also I think in the future Turkish air force will united with Azerbaycan or other Turkic countries to become the Air Force of Turkic Union.

Bro Taiwan has China as an immediate danger threat, with more than 1000+ fighter planes as opponents. They generate their income from the chip industry, especially through TSMC.
USA gives them very high discounts, and help them underhand with maintenance & support, almost the whole electronics world is produced there chip wise.
If Taiwan falls to China, the entire chip industry in the USA & the world will fall into China's hands.
South Korea's opponent is North Korea, which, together with China, also has nuclear weapons. In contrast to Russia, which has the good sense not to use these weapons even in times of war.
North Korea has no inhibitions about using them as a first strike if it were to attack South Korea.
Even the Russians have the fear of God and morals, which the Chinese and North Koreans do not have.
For them, a human life is worth nothing, you only have to see how they treat their own people and now transfer this to foreign people, God save the country that would be attacked by the two countries, the previous war criminals in the world would look more like a joke then.

The location of Turkey with Greece, Russia & Iran as opponents is a joke in comparison.
Iran & Russia dare not attack a NATO country, it would be their death sentence.
That leaves only Greece....and they simply don't have the capacity to keep up in the long term.
The USA won't sponsor them indefinitely just because they get anxiety attacks

Yes

Anyway that depend on our economy,If we have a GDP per capita much than 28000USD within 10 years we can have 800 JETs,If only less than 18000 we can only about 300-400.

 

[dBSPL]

@IC3M@N FX bro, the examples of Taiwan and Korea are closer to the examples of the Turkish air force during the cold war. I mean, both the NATO nuclear arsenal was deployed in TR and special assistance was provided by the US in terms of technical capabilities such as high-altitude long-range fighter jets that could intercept bombers, etc. during the years when Soviet harassment increased from time to time. Of course, these were not gratuitous and what they brought or took away is a separate discussion.

Contrary to the counter-examples you gave, today Turkiye's threat perception is not uni-axial. It is more multifaceted than ever. This is also related to Turkiye's need to maintain sufficient hard power to prioritize its interests and, in the broader scheme of things, to build its own center of power. Without moving from a position of contested equilibrium to kind of absolute imposed dominance, you can maintain your foreign policy interests within certain limits. To be sure of this, one only needs to look at our allies on paper. Our on paper allies are a source of worry for friends and confidence for enemies.

In conclusion, I agree with the view that it is time for both air power and naval power to spread their wings. We already have this technically, and in terms of staff capabilities, but now we need to reinforce it quantitatively. We are a Army Country, throughout history. Everytime we embrace this reality, has always carried this country forward. I am not talking about being an aggressive country waging wars left and right. It is to be a country that relies more on hard power in the foreign policy arena. The answer to the question of whether the country's economy can carry this size lies in this; Turkish army can carry the Turkish economy too.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

No, no he isn't, a lot of people unfortunately live in a Red Alert 2 kind of reality.

Oh , No no isnt ,, while u and some others that want Turkiye to buy 4 Tf 2000or 4 I class that are enough(according to some) and 100 Kaans fighters are so glad with 23 billion to give USA for 40 f16 thats his time is over (time for 5gen fighters)
and 79 upgrades of older f16 .
And USA with that money to give free weapons to greece / israel / ukraine zionism regimes .
First Turkiye should ask tongive back money that we sent for f35 , thats Turkish peoples money .
Second no weapon from USA or others should be bought while out industry is building our own weapons.
Turkiye should buy another S400 sytem long range and show middle finger to USA . If Turkiye do that order 23 billion it will be huge mistake that people never forget and forgive