Navy Turkish Aircraft Carrier Project

[Nilgiri]

For Hurjet we can take India's Tejas Naval for comparison, they are well-matched in size, weight and engine size - ofcourse the Naval version of Tejas has greater wingspan which is around 60% greater than Hurjet.

I believe navalising Hurjet would be the quickest way- but if a naval version is being developed parallel to training and light attack versions of Hurjet - we may see it within the decade or sooner.

Yes the important thing is that Turkey develops the robust ecosystem around hurjet.

Turkey has good industrial capacity to do this quite quickly....a transition to naval design on same platform can be achieved quite quickly.

Once India hit the ecosystem development intensity needed, it was not hard to get variants quite quickly...this is why the schedules for Tejas Mk2/TEDBF are lot more aggressive lately (just couple years away or so).

Our Air Chief in aero-india gave interview that the scope of orders for these variants will depend on the AMCA schedule and what development and production capacity will be tied up there if that timeline comes at quicker potential. If it will take time, then theres more need for interim variants of mk 2 Tejas etc basically.

 

[the]

Britain doesn't have any Harriers or Sea Harriers to sell.
- If we want to buy Harrier IIs from Italy or Spain, US consent and approval will be required. "Good luck with that"
- If we want to buy AV-8B's from the USA, "good luck with that"

In response to Cihat Yaycı's suggestion to buy Harriers to accompany TCG ANADOLU.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358776298055737347

 

[Ardabas34]

We dont need a carrier ship anyway, we are a regional power and we already have an unsinkable carrier ship: Cyprus. I dont know why everyone suddenly started getting hyped about a carrier ship. It is the last thing Turkey needs.

 

[Zafer]

We dont need a carrier ship anyway, we are a regional power and we already have an unsinkable carrier ship: Cyprus. I dont know why everyone suddenly started getting hyped about a carrier ship. It is the last thing Turkey needs.

If we want to deal with Egypt and Greece as counterparts for oil and gas exploitation we need to deal with Ethiopia and Somalia and Libya and their neighbors too. If we don't than we pay for the $50bn energy costs of Turkey with tomatoes. We need to be able to show that we can protect our interests or else we will have no interests.

 

[Ardabas34]

If we want to deal with Egypt and Greece as counterparts for oil and gas exploitation we need to deal with Ethiopia and Somalia and Libya and their neighbors too. If we don't than we pay for the $50bn energy costs of Turkey with tomatoes. We need to be able to show that we can protect our interests or else we will have no interests.

What do you mean? There is a military base in Somalia and Libya. Somalian military base isnt an air base but why would we need an airforce in Somalia? Ethiopia is already against Egypt due to Bidens support on Egypt in the dam crisis between the two countries, Sudans interests allign with Egypt in the dam crisis, there is nothing we can do about Sudan.

For none of these counties carriers are needed or helpful. Of course if Turkey got one out of nowhere it would be delightful but it is a painful process to produce it(noone will sell it) and even when you get one it is another expense to possess one since its yearly maintainances are very costly.

I mean of course it can be useful, perhaps we can use it in another part of the World just to annoy USA and get one more leverage on them.

But obviously we have much more serious priorities ahead of ourselves right now. We have a Greece that arms like hell. When the Aegean sea is boiling setting our eyes on the oceans is dumb.

 

[Zafer]

What do you mean? There is a military base in Somalia and Libya. Somalian military base isnt an air base but why would we need an airforce in Somalia? Ethiopia is already against Egypt due to Bidens support on Egypt in the dam crisis between the two countries, Sudans interests allign with Egypt in the dam crisis, there is nothing we can do about Sudan.

For none of these counties carriers are needed or helpful. Of course if Turkey got one out of nowhere it would be delightful but it is a painful process to produce it(noone will sell it) and even when you get one it is another expense to possess one since its yearly maintainances are very costly.

I mean of course it can be useful, perhaps we can use it in another part of the World just to annoy USA and get one more leverage on them.

But obviously we have much more serious priorities ahead of ourselves right now. We have a Greece that arms like hell. When the Aegean sea is boiling setting our eyes on the oceans is dumb.

There are other aspects too. Construction is considered to be Turkey's locomotive of economy but nowadays defense industry is picking up speed and volume. We need to come up with an anchor project that will drive the defense economy to a new level. An aircraft carrier is the perfect driver to play big in defense industry. That's what US did, instead of going small they went big. They are looking for smaller and non nuclear carriers nowadays but they wanted colossal ships to make a difference in the past.

The successful completion of an aircraft carrier project will be the pinnacle of Turkish technology achievements. Our ship will be next only to US nuclear ships or even better as nuclear is hard to maintain which is why they want smaller carriers now. We need to aim high to be a pillar in the multi polar world.

An aircraft carrier is for tomorrow's world too not just today's.

 

[Deliorman]

You would be a great pillar in this multipolar world with a population of 83 million that is aging fast and de-Turkifying and an economy of 700$ billion which is in a middle income trap and is an absolute mess. Americans are shitting their pants.

 

[Zafer]

You would be a great pillar in this multipolar world with a population of 83 million that is aging fast and de-Turkifying and an economy of 700$ billion which is in a middle income trap and is an absolute mess. Americans are shitting their pants.

You've got everything right but reversed it to fool people:

Aging population with just 32 years of median age, US is 38, Japan is 48.
$700bn ? Turkey has the purchasing power of $2.8bn.
Trap & Mess; we are skipping it with the industrialization campaign from cars to fighters, to carriers, you name it.
Shitting in their pants, how should they not, Turkey's weapons are not Saddam's Scuds.

 

[Quasar]

whatever Aircraft we deploy on our AC it should be superior or at least on par with that they will face in the Air, lets first just focus on mediterranean( most likely what they will face is diffrent Blocks of f 16, diffrewnt varients of Mig 29, Mirgae 2000s, F 15s, Eurofighters, Rafale, SU 30, F 35. I dont know I have the feeling that we should be fair to HURJET there are lots of things we can do with HURJET but we should accept its limitations as well we designed it as a trainer and for CAS. The simple fact is we do not have a short term solution if you value the lifes of your pilots and if you realy care to use your AC as a strategic aset

 

[adenl]

whatever Aircraft we deploy on our AC it should be superior or at least on par with that they will face in the Air, lets first just focus on mediterranean( most likely what they will face is diffrent Blocks of f 16, diffrewnt varients of Mig 29, Mirgae 2000s, F 15s, Eurofighters, Rafale, SU 30, F 35. I dont know I have the feeling that we should be fair to HURJET there are lots of things we can do with HURJET but we should accept its limitations as well we designed it as a trainer and for CAS. The simple fact is we do not have a short term solution if you value the lifes of your pilots and if you realy care to use your AC as a strategic aset

The Hurjet could easily be modified into a single seat (naval) fighter in the class of the Tejas, JF-17 and Gripen. But by the time the Turkish AC comes online, the TF-X program will have fruited in different configurations of which a carrier variant surely is one of. And the Hurjet will have a carrier trainer variant capable of training the new generation of Turkish carrier pilots.

 

[Zafer]

whatever Aircraft we deploy on our AC it should be superior or at least on par with that they will face in the Air, lets first just focus on mediterranean( most likely what they will face is diffrent Blocks of f 16, diffrewnt varients of Mig 29, Mirgae 2000s, F 15s, Eurofighters, Rafale, SU 30, F 35. I dont know I have the feeling that we should be fair to HURJET there are lots of things we can do with HURJET but we should accept its limitations as well we designed it as a trainer and for CAS. The simple fact is we do not have a short term solution if you value the lifes of your pilots and if you realy care to use your AC as a strategic aset

Don't just take Hürjet for its face value, we have a good experience making planes unmanned.
Once we have a Turkish engine made for the TFX we can as well make a plane powered by a single TFX engine that is better than an F16. Think about the possibilities. Once you make the first one you can make the followers. Just look at countries that make both the engine and the plane, they don't stop with just one plane.

Don't take France as an example, they are not facing any threats other that some fighter clans.

 

[Combat-Master]

whatever Aircraft we deploy on our AC it should be superior or at least on par with that they will face in the Air, lets first just focus on mediterranean( most likely what they will face is diffrent Blocks of f 16, diffrewnt varients of Mig 29, Mirgae 2000s, F 15s, Eurofighters, Rafale, SU 30, F 35. I dont know I have the feeling that we should be fair to HURJET there are lots of things we can do with HURJET but we should accept its limitations as well we designed it as a trainer and for CAS. The simple fact is we do not have a short term solution if you value the lifes of your pilots and if you realy care to use your AC as a strategic aset

Hurjet would be the most viable option in the mid-term, as for being comparable to other more larger swing-role platforms - the only disadvantage I see would be the carrying capacity. You gotta remember, Hurjet will be using the latest tech available while the old swans not so much.

 

[Indos]

How does it make sense Turkey to decline an offer for assistance to build an aircraft design of HMS Queen Elizabeth variant in Turkey just as it was done with Navantia's Athlas (Juan Carlos I)?
There are some inconsistencies in the source:

In short;
-Turkey wants to purchase an aircraft carrier in last years (could be related to a decommissioned LPH, this has been on news when the ship was transferred to Brazil in 2018 that Turkey was also interested in purchasing it)
Why would Turkey want to purhase an aircraft carrier off the shelf without local production? Why would such a request was made in first place?

-UK declines the request but offers an assistance to build the design. (no chances on purchasing a Queen Elizabeth tonnage wise so request from Turkey is already a misinformation)
Doesn't it make sense for the offer take place as: a request was made with intentions of receiving an asistance to design and build an aircraft carrier? Which was also revealed in earlier times and has been driving point for the projects will be challenging by solely depending on national sources.

-As offer is declined (but Turkey has declined the assistance offer, after UK has declined the purchase request), Turkey decides move on with a national design.
How does this make sense? With which sources, which experience? In the end, an asisstance will be received regardless of the decision.


The news should be consistent within itself, within conjecture of Turkish Navy's procurement choices.


A few minor edits in the text.

Yup, it is not logic. British would prefer building AC for Turkey in their own shipyard rather than selling just a design and plus assistance for Turkey shipyard to build it in Turkey.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Don't just take Hürjet for its face value, we have a good experience making planes unmanned.
Once we have a Turkish engine made for the TFX we can as well make a plane powered by a single TFX engine that is better than an F16. Think about the possibilities. Once you make the first one you can make the followers. Just look at countries that make both the engine and the plane, they don't stop with just one plane.

Don't take France as an example, they are not facing any threats other that some fighter clans.

This will be the best choice and I believe Turkey will follow this path. Hurjet-NG or a different block to be powered with single Tf-X engine having thrust ratio around 27000lb-30000lb will be a capable aircraft in its own league. Hürjet will be our first step in supersonic manned aircraft field and this platform will be modified in accordance to requirements of Turkish Army.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hurjet would be the most viable option in the mid-term, as for being comparable to other more larger swing-role platforms - the only disadvantage I see would be the carrying capacity. You gotta remember, Hurjet will be using the latest tech available while the old swans not so much.

I had discussed this earlier about Hurjet and TCG Anadolu. In order to be carrier compatible Hurjet needs to be rebuilt to a different standard altogether.
1. It has to withstand salt sea water. Has to be navalised.
2. It has to have a structure and landing gear to withstand adverse conditions whilst landing and take off.
3. It has to have a more powerful engine like a GEF414 or better still the TVC version of EJ200. The thrust vectoring option on ej200 gives this engine 23100lbf thrust.
4. But really a carrier based modern craft should really have twin engines. In case, one is damaged the plane and it’s pilot should have a chance to survive. Apart from the STOVL planes all conventional carrier based planes are twin engined. F4, F14, F18, SU33, Mig29K, AJ15, RafaleM.

A carrier based plane’s primary responsibility is to protect the carrier. So it should be fast and agile but most importantly has to have long range AAMissiles and Aesa radars to complement. As secondary responsibility it has to provide air to ground attack. With more powerful engines, say 14000-15000lbf each, and better structure, new Hurjet should be a 1.6-1.8 Mach top speed plane with more useful load capacity.

 

[Turko]

Before building an aircraft carrier, You need to have cruiser/destroyers to secure them.

 

[Combat-Master]

I had discussed this earlier about Hurjet and TCG Anadolu. In order to be carrier compatible Hurjet needs to be rebuilt to a different standard altogether.
1. It has to withstand salt sea water. Has to be navalised.
2. It has to have a structure and landing gear to withstand adverse conditions whilst landing and take off.
3. It has to have a more powerful engine like a GEF414 or better still the TVC version of EJ200. The thrust vectoring option on ej200 gives this engine 23100lbf thrust.
4. But really a carrier based modern craft should really have twin engines. In case, one is damaged the plane and it’s pilot should have a chance to survive. Apart from the STOVL planes all conventional carrier based planes are twin engined. F4, F14, F18, SU33, Mig29K, AJ15, RafaleM.

A carrier based plane’s primary responsibility is to protect the carrier. So it should be fast and agile but most importantly has to have long range AAMissiles and Aesa radars to complement. As secondary responsibility it has to provide air to ground attack. With more powerful engines, say 14000-15000lbf each, and better structure, new Hurjet should be a 1.6-1.8 Mach top speed plane with more useful load capacity.

I agree with some of your points, as those are necessary to make Hurjet a CATOBAR carrier based aircraft, i'd also say that Hurjet may require more wing surface area for take-offs and landings.

However, in terms of the requiring a second engine it is not necessary. F-35 runs off a single engine, Harriers have been running off a single engine for decades. It's not a necessity and overall complicates maintenance and would use up space on a carrier. I can see Hurjet becoming India's Naval variant of Tejas, very capable single engined light fighter aircraft.

 

[Anmdt]

Yup, it is not logic. British would prefer building AC for Turkey in their own shipyard rather than selling just a design and plus assistance for Turkey shipyard to build it in Turkey.

Actually my point is;
UK wouldn't offer an end product especially when it is an aircraft carrier, they know in the first place Turkey would require local production and Turkish sensor integration.
And Turkey wouldn't decline such an offer on assistance on design.
None of claims in the article actually makes any sense.

 

[mulj]

You would be a great pillar in this multipolar world with a population of 83 million that is aging fast and de-Turkifying and an economy of 700$ billion which is in a middle income trap and is an absolute mess. Americans are shitting their pants.

do not worry, there is enough influx of non turkish people to maintain fertility rates. amazing how people mix daily, monthly, yearly and longterm goals and projections. AC is necesity when you introduce your own aircrafts and all others naval assets that currently are in projections.

 

[Indos]

do not worry, there is enough influx of non turkish people to maintain fertility rates. amazing how people mix daily, monthly, yearly and longterm goals and projections. AC is necesity when you introduce your own aircrafts and all others naval assets that currently are in projections.

Just wait Libya election to take place next year before building AC. If pro Turkish win with large margin than it will be potential military base that will make Turkey get better coverage in the Mediterania Sea.