Turkish American relationship

guest12

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Says US offered patriot even joint production. I do not believe I heard anything about joint production. Would US state departement share the tender bid to prove this. I don’t have much trust in TR government on sharing this sort of knowledge in evaluation of the missile bids
Thats a lie.Forget joint production U.S. Congress even halted direct purchase order with usual BS reasons .

Edit: Sorry @Sinan is right they did offer foint production after decision to buy Chinese FD-2000 became clear but again like he said it only for ... canisters.
 
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Sinan

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Says US offered patriot even joint production. I do not believe I heard anything about joint production. Would US state departement share the tender bid to prove this. I don’t have much trust in TR government on sharing this sort of knowledge in evaluation of the missile bids
There was joint production, i remember. They are talking about T-LORAMIDS program.

However there were some rumors saying, joint production was about Turkey producing canisters. No ToT.
 

Saithan

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There was joint production, i remember. They are talking about T-LORAMIDS program.

However there were some rumors saying, joint production was about Turkey producing canisters. No ToT.

If so then it truly wasn’t worth the paper it was written upon.
 

Ardabas34

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I don’t quite remember how it goes, but when the banks or insurance companies promise that your money is safe. That’s when you need to tighten your hold on what’s yours... in other words we must believe that the US is going to increase their coup support.

I dont know what what Blinken said implies, I dont know if he is sincere and I for sure dont know what they are designing in their heads but
I know it always costed empires to not accept the changing conjuncture.
British lost its empire during WW1 and WW2 period because they didnt want to accept Germany as a competitor. British won the war but it costed Britain greatly. For example after WW1 when Lloyd George government asked troops from Canada and Australia&New Zealand to defend Istanbul from the ''Kemalist forces'' for the first time in their history they replied negatively to this. I heard it from a Canadian how we actually unknowingly contributed to their ''independent state'' idea. This was actually Britains refusal to accept it could not expand, demand troops from its colonies and hold lands anymore. Had they accepted this and never asked troops and quietly abondon the city, they wouldnt face rejection from its colonies.

Same can be said about Ottoman Empire. It always expanded in its rising period. Its structures started to rot in late 16th century. Sipahi system got spoiled as evidenced by Celali revolts in late 16th century. Osman II in 1620 suffered so bad from the incompetence of the spoiled Janissary system and had to abondon his Poland campaign despite great initial successes.
So the empire instead of accepting its glory days were over and turning to defensive made a very ambitious attempt in 1683 trying to take Vienna. We all know how the failure at Vienna triggered ''Great Turkish War'' in Europe resulting us losing massive portions of lands, lands we gained in centuries. Had we accepted our situation, turned on the defensive and maybe master our castle building skills it would have lasted longer.

Now same thing goes for USA. It refuses to acknowledge it isnt the same USA of 90's. It still believes it is the gendarme of the World. It is actually very arrogant of its current situation. Turkey actually has so much interests alligning with USA right?
Instead of accepting its new situation and allying with Turkey, it still wants total domination like back in the day. It is so arrogant that it wants total control on Turkey. It just cant stand the idea that Turkey pursues its own national interests, not even national interests but national security.
We view it as Turks but actually if you take a step back and look at it actually USA lost massively by losing Turkey solely because of its arrogance.

I view 15 July 2016 as the 1683 of USA. It was the last ambitious but far fetched attempt of USA. Had it succeeded they would have divided Turkey and found their Kurdistan. Kurdistan project actually failed at 15 July 2016 in my opinion. Kurdistan was their Vienna, 15 July 2016 was their 1683. Gulenists were their ''lağımcıs''. Those who checked candles fire to observe whether there is a vibration on ground to foresee lağımcıs was MİT. Just like how Ottomans lost a massive chunk of land due to failing at 1683(had they succeeded it would have been great for them) because USA lost in 15 July they lost the entire Turkeys trust. Had they succeeded they would have a slave state plus, a Kurdistan, it would have been great for them but since they lost they actually lost the entire Turkey as a country. Back in the day Turkey at least trusted USA. Now it will be worse than even before.


It is simple, if they accept their new situation fast and adopt to it they will preserve more power. If they go as they do now with bullshits like ''containing Turkey'' to bring it onto its knees, they will continue to lose power more rapidly.
 

TR_123456

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"Turkey won’t return to being an amicable ally" This Amicable word is a Status which have to be feel/seen from both side of Allies USA and Turkiye.
But as we have seen from History ( I have to exclude years from 1960 -1976 ) USA was not and will not been Amicable to Turkiye. But Turkiye was Amicable to USA and what Turkiye got from that is that USA sided with PKK, Partly with Russia and continue with hostile actions which lead Turkiye to change it Status to be equal to USA -> not Amicable.
It should happened earlier (at 90s). Important thing now is that Turkiye is no more make self blind on USA hostile actions against Turkiye.
-Continue to supports pkk openly and other terrorist groups against Turkiye
-Twisting Turkiye hands with Sanctions
-Embargoes
-Openly Kicks Turkiye out of the F35 program. USA is Thief in this situation
-Openly lies about coupe (it is like talking with kids)
-New Administration came USA and initial actions showed already that they continue in the same hostile path but now they try to be more silent and cover they actions if possible.

One thing is clear as I said before high risk of last bad situation past for Turkiye (so called short to midle period) . Now we are in long run game and Turkiye have leverage on USA. The more time passed the more USA will got pressure and more they gonna loss.
It has nothing to to do with ''self blind'' in the 90s,we didnt have what we have now,economicly or militarely.
Not possible at the time.
 

TR_123456

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I view 15 July 2016 as the 1683 of USA. It was the last ambitious but far fetched attempt of USA. Had it succeeded they would have divided Turkey and found their Kurdistan. Kurdistan project actually failed at 15 July 2016 in my opinion. Kurdistan was their Vienna, 15 July 2016 was their 1683. Gulenists were their ''lağımcıs''. Those who checked candles fire to observe whether there is a vibration on ground to foresee lağımcıs was MİT. Just like how Ottomans lost a massive chunk of land due to failing at 1683(had they succeeded it would have been great for them) because USA lost in 15 July they lost the entire Turkeys trust. Had they succeeded they would have a slave state plus, a Kurdistan, it would have been great for them but since they lost they actually lost the entire Turkey as a country. Back in the day Turkey at least trusted USA. Now it will be worse than even before.
No,their ''Kurdistan'' project hasnt failed yet,i guess you havent seen the bases they built on our southern borders.
It all depends on us if they will succeed or faill,time will show.
 

guest12

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I dont know what what Blinken said implies, I dont know if he is sincere and I for sure dont know what they are designing in their heads but
I know it always costed empires to not accept the changing conjuncture.
British lost its empire during WW1 and WW2 period because they didnt want to accept Germany as a competitor. British won the war but it costed Britain greatly. For example after WW1 when Lloyd George government asked troops from Canada and Australia&New Zealand to defend Istanbul from the ''Kemalist forces'' for the first time in their history they replied negatively to this. I heard it from a Canadian how we actually unknowingly contributed to their ''independent state'' idea. This was actually Britains refusal to accept it could not expand, demand troops from its colonies and hold lands anymore. Had they accepted this and never asked troops and quietly abondon the city, they wouldnt face rejection from its colonies.

Same can be said about Ottoman Empire. It always expanded in its rising period. Its structures started to rot in late 16th century. Sipahi system got spoiled as evidenced by Celali revolts in late 16th century. Osman II in 1620 suffered so bad from the incompetence of the spoiled Janissary system and had to abondon his Poland campaign despite great initial successes.
So the empire instead of accepting its glory days were over and turning to defensive made a very ambitious attempt in 1683 trying to take Vienna. We all know how the failure at Vienna triggered ''Great Turkish War'' in Europe resulting us losing massive portions of lands, lands we gained in centuries. Had we accepted our situation, turned on the defensive and maybe master our castle building skills it would have lasted longer.

Now same thing goes for USA. It refuses to acknowledge it isnt the same USA of 90's. It still believes it is the gendarme of the World. It is actually very arrogant of its current situation. Turkey actually has so much interests alligning with USA right?
Instead of accepting its new situation and allying with Turkey, it still wants total domination like back in the day. It is so arrogant that it wants total control on Turkey. It just cant stand the idea that Turkey pursues its own national interests, not even national interests but national security.
We view it as Turks but actually if you take a step back and look at it actually USA lost massively by losing Turkey solely because of its arrogance.

I view 15 July 2016 as the 1683 of USA. It was the last ambitious but far fetched attempt of USA. Had it succeeded they would have divided Turkey and found their Kurdistan. Kurdistan project actually failed at 15 July 2016 in my opinion. Kurdistan was their Vienna, 15 July 2016 was their 1683. Gulenists were their ''lağımcıs''. Those who checked candles fire to observe whether there is a vibration on ground to foresee lağımcıs was MİT. Just like how Ottomans lost a massive chunk of land due to failing at 1683(had they succeeded it would have been great for them) because USA lost in 15 July they lost the entire Turkeys trust. Had they succeeded they would have a slave state plus, a Kurdistan, it would have been great for them but since they lost they actually lost the entire Turkey as a country. Back in the day Turkey at least trusted USA. Now it will be worse than even before.


It is simple, if they accept their new situation fast and adopt to it they will preserve more power. If they go as they do now with bullshits like ''containing Turkey'' to bring it onto its knees, they will continue to lose power more rapidly.
Simple U.S. is not an independent superpower and some conspiracy theory exist for a reason.

They also didnt give up their current bet is regime change
through next democratic elections.
 

Ardabas34

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No,their ''Kurdistan'' project hasnt failed yet,i guess you havent seen the bases they built on our southern borders.
It all depends on us if they will succeed or faill,time will show.
For the sake of continuing the comparison I will say I think you can simile the current position to the period between 1683 and 1699 :D
Of course we have to remain competent and stay sharp.

Truth to be told you cant found your Kurdistan without Turkey out of the equality. They knew that, they thought they could achieve that, they took their chances and they failed it. It was a gamble. As a result they completely made Turkey a hostile country.

Imagine. There is a Kurdish autonomous region in North Iraq, first they achieved that. At some point it had to give up its own independence for the sake of a Kurdistan. Because first they try to secure autonomous regions across the countries(Turkey, Iraq, Syria) then they have to unite them. But doing this will cost Barzani his own position as a ruler. So he naturally doesnt want that. So at one point Pkk had to take him out. We have cut and are cutting PKK's foothold in Iraq. So how are they going to bring Barzani down when he is backed by Turkey ?

In Syria unfortunately they have been very successful so far. Still Turkey actively cut their Mediterranian link by taking Afrin. This was a huge blow to them. Kurdistan project is sth like %50 unsuccessful without a link to the Mediterranian. Turkey did that. It created a turmoil in US, against Trump. The trust between Pkk and US was shattered.

US also had to make a deal with Russia just for the sake of keeping Turkey out but it gave away total control of US.

Forget all of these, the most important, crucial and ambitious part of this project was the Turkey foot. Remember back in 2015, PKK went so far that they were collecting taxes from cities, they had their own militia, their own bureucracy. The moment Erdogan turned against them, a panic took them and they foolishly declared ''self-governence''. This gave legitimacy for Turkish army and we absolutely blasted them.

Think of how close the date is to the coup attempt. Had the coup attempt succeeded we would have lose those lands, there is no doubt on this.
Now we completely cleared those areas from PKK, today we deal with PKK outside our borders in Iraq. We literally finished them. Imagine how much advancement they lost by losing in Turkey.


Now you are saying they might come back to that point. Yes, there is that chance. Ottomans also potentially had the chance of winning their wars between 1683-1698 and coming back to the gates of Vienna but we all know that did not happen.

The thing is I dont see that battery power in US. It is in turmoil and isolationist powers in it are already grumbling. If you think Trumpism will die with Trump being gone, well you are wrong. They may have saved the day with their ''congress raid'' theatre but it can only be a tactical victory because this is about the changing conjuncture of the World.

Some people are worried about the opposition that will come in 2023. Yes, I do think opposition is pro-US to a worrying degree but keep one thing in mind: so was Erdogan. It isnt really granted that once a proxy remains a proxy. I do think regardless of what the main opposition acts like, the moment they make it to the government they will change. Call me optimistic if you want.

This is why US said the problems with Turkey cant be solved with the change of government, they are fundamental. This is why they started acting so hostile, they understood there isnt a way of winning Turkey back like the old days. This is why we see all those demonising campaigns.

I just ask these questions, nothing else:
1) is there a way to initiate a ''solution process'' with Pkk again in Turkey?
2) is there a way for Fetö to gain sympathy from Turkish public opinion again in Turkey?
3) is there a way for Turkish army to retreat from Afrin at this point?

All of these questions could be answered ''yes'' in a way or another in my opinion if we were dealing with the US of back in the days.

You want proof? Gulenists straight out became anti-Turkey in everywhere. They observably no longer hold the anxiety of ''getting themselves liked by the public''. They insult the country and they insult the people.
What does this mean? They have already accepted they lost that game.

Same goes for US. It doesnt even try at this point to hide its hostility. They openly said ''if'' when PKK killed our people. Not to mention many other insults and threats over the last few years.
So I say if things were that likely to change with just a change of government, well they would try to hide their hostility wouldnt they?

Edit: @guest12 my reply goes for you too.
 
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Bogeyman 

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EwuJyCMWEAM_f-6
 

Ryder

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Hdp going down the drain 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Remember who are the majority of hdp voters they are all kurds but we as Turks put our heads in the sand.

Another kurdish party will come they will still support the pkk and their bullshit kurdistan.
 

the

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Mr. President Erdoğan,
• I extend my best wishes to you and to the people of the Republic of Turkey.
• I share the pain of Turkish citizens, their families and all the people affected by the coronavirus epidemic.

- US President Biden

 

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