TR Turkish History|Debate and Discussion

[Stimpy75]

The islands which the Italians took control of during WWII were offered to us, but some Genius just told " it's not worth the adventure" or sth like that....just ask Google amca

 

[CAN_TR]

The islands which the Italians took control of during WWII were offered to us, but some Genius just told " it's not worth the adventure" or sth like that....just ask Google amca

OFF TOPIC
Can you please tell me when exactly Italy offered those Islands to Turkey? Because after Italy's surrender 1943 the Germans took control over the Islands. And after Germany surrendered 1945 the Islands were given to Greece in 1947 despite Turkish protests.

The genius played both sides, benefited from both sides and managed to keep Turkey out of WW2, but yeah let's ignore the fact why exactly those Islands and Libya were lost in the first place.

 

[Ryder]

The islands which the Italians took control of during WWII were offered to us, but some Genius just told " it's not worth the adventure" or sth like that....just ask Google amca

Unfortunately thats my biggest criticism of Ismet Inonu.

But also realise why he did not take the deal. We all know we were going to be forced to handover the islands because the Allies will accuse us of some dumb thing for dealing with Mussolini's Italy.

You know Italy was suppose to handover the Islands after the Turco-Italian war of Libya but due to loop holes of the treaty signed and Italy's usual cunningness and the Ottoman Empire's weakeness meant the thing past over until Italy wanted to give it back so the Allies especially Greece dont take the islands back. Italians were willing to give it back just to stick it to the Allies.

Unfortunately we all need to look at our history with factors and try not to be bias by treating it like a football team.

Credit where its due Ismet keeping us out of ww2 was one of the best things he did.

Islands also had a majority Greek population lets all be honest these Islands as much as I want them would have been our next pkk problem.

Overall losing the Aegan islands was the price to pay for being weak, having an awful navy while also failing at a diplomatic level.

Greece enlarged itself without even having to fire a bullet. These guys easily took land due to Greek population siding with them like in Crete.

Great Powers handed these islands to contain Turkey and destroy its economic prosperity.

Greece is nothing more than a proxy which is being used against Turkey.

 

[mulj]

Islands were not claimed at all before Lausanne conferemce amd that was shortsighted strategic blunder

 

[CAN_TR]

Islands were not claimed at all before Lausanne conferemce amd that was shortsighted strategic blunder

Under Italian control *facepalm* the Islands were lost because of the Italo-Turkish War in Libya and ceded to the Italians by signing the 1st Treaty of Lausanne also known as Treaty of Ouchy.
With the 2nd Treaty of Lausanne (1923) Turkey recognized the annexation of the Dodecannese by Italy.

 

[mulj]

Under Italian control *facepalm*

So what? Did you claim them on conference, you did not even try. I call it blunder, if you have better insight then this wiki quote pls tell.

The Dodecanese, except Kastellorizo, were occupied by Italy during the Italo-Turkish War of 1912. Italy had agreed to return the islands to the Ottoman Empire according to the Treaty of Ouchy in 1912;[2] however the vagueness of the text allowed a provisional Italian administration of the islands, and Turkey eventually renounced all claims on the Dodecanese with Article 15 of the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.[3]

 

[Ryder]

Islands were not claimed at all before Lausanne conferemce amd that was shortsighted strategic blunder

Well unfortunately in our Turkish independance war our navy was locked up in Istanbul while the waters were patrolled by Greek, Italian, British, French, American and Japanese war ships.

There was no chance in doing a amphimbious landings or naval bombardments as we had no capabilities to launch it.

Turkish army only had a few patrol boats in the independance war. Thats why there was barely any naval battles as most of it was fought on land.

But the Turkish army did suffer from naval bombardments from the British, French and the Americans.

Turkish Guerillas once pushed back a British landing in Mudanya.

 

[Stimpy75]

..... i just wanted to write a really long answer...but for what....inönü was the biggest p.o.s of politician around...walking around with the wife of a yunan general with whom we fought during independence war as like they are best buddies....so sry again for the offtopic....

 

[mulj]

Well unfortunately in our Turkish independance war our navy was locked up in Istanbul while the waters were patrolled by Greek, Italian, British, French, American and Japanese war ships.

There was no chance in doing a amphimbious landings or naval bombardments as we had no capabilities to launch it.

Turkish army only had a few patrol boats in the independance war. Thats why there was barely any naval battles as most of it was fought on land.

But the Turkish army did suffer from naval bombardments from the British, French and the Americans.

Turkish Guerillas once pushed back a British landing in Mudanya.

Bro, never the less, you still have some legitimacy on paper over Mosul for example, i am puzzled how you gave away all the rights on islands in front of your nose so to speak.
Todays Greeks drag you back and forth with international law and you can not do nothing beside military escalation to protect what remained as last line of defence in aegean sea.

 

[CAN_TR]

So what? Did you claim them on conference, you did not even try. I call it blunder, if you have better insight then this wiki quote pls tell.

The Dodecanese, except Kastellorizo, were occupied by Italy during the Italo-Turkish War of 1912. Italy had agreed to return the islands to the Ottoman Empire according to the Treaty of Ouchy in 1912;[2] however the vagueness of the text allowed a provisional Italian administration of the islands, and Turkey eventually renounced all claims on the Dodecanese with Article 15 of the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.[3]

Italy placed a governour before Lausanne and Italization process began, Italians colonized the Island, non Italians got the Italian passport but without any right to vote etc., Italian became the Official Language and obligation. Guess who came to power in Italy 1922? And who rejected the treaties?

But Yes with the Treaty of Lausanne Turkey acknowledged the annexation of the Island, you can say it's a bad deal, it is now, but back in the past under their conditions it's waay better than Sevres and no treaty at all (continue the war)...

Ottoman Empire could have prevent the easy annexation of the Islands and Invasion of Libya, but only when the Navy wasn't neglected and rust away in the ports. previously.

 

[mulj]

Italy placed a governour before Lausanne and Italization process began, Italians colonized the Island, non Italians got the Italian passport but without any right to vote etc., Italian became the Official Language and obligation. Guess who came to power in Italy 1922? And who rejected the treaties?

But Yes with the Treaty of Lausanne Turkey acknowledged the annexation of the Island, you can say it's a bad deal, it is now, but back in the past under their conditions it's waay better than Sevres and no treaty at all (continue the war)...

Thx, so i did not say nothing wrong. At the and your and future gemerations have to cope with consequnces of it and protect what you consider your rights under more dificult circumtences then possibly could have been.

 

[CAN_TR]

Thx, so i did not say nothing wrong. At the and your and future gemerations have to cope with consequnces of it and protect what you consider your rights under more dificult circumtences then possibly could have been.

For the present Turkish strategic policy it's bad back then it was something nearly unimaginable... that's what you should get in your head.

Crying about Mosul, Kirkuk, Islands now is pathetic, what did you expect them to do? Naval Invasion and kicking Italians out, attacking the British Empire?

 

[mulj]

For the present Turkish strategic policy it's bad back then it was something nearly unimaginable... that's what you should get in your head.

Crying about Mosul, Kirkuk, Islands now is pathetic, what did you expect them to do? Naval Invasion and kicking Italians out, attacking the British Empire?

I am not foreseer to go inside people heads like in past or today, all i can do is to observe facts and draw my own conclusion based on rationality and current circumtences.

If the merely mentioning undisputable historical fact and its correlation with contemporary times is crying for you, so be it. I think it is not.

 

[CAN_TR]

I am not foreseer to go inside people heads like in past or today, all i can do is to observe facts and draw my own conclusion based on rationality and current circumtences.

If the merely mentioning undisputable historical fact and its correlation with contemporary times is crying for you, so be it. I think it is not.

Are you also crying for Basra? Suez? Crimea? Algiers? Tripoli? Crete? All historical facts and correlation to the present times.
Your intentions are something else...

It's ridiculous to make people responsible for the present political disputes when they lived in a totally different time and conditions.

 

[mulj]

Are you also crying for Basra? Suez? Crimea? Algiers? Tripoli? Crete? All historical facts and correlation to the present times.
Your intentions are something else...

It's ridiculous to make people responsible for the present political disputes when they lived in a totally different time and conditions.

In certain way actually i do but it widens of topic even more.

Same could be said for praising of geniousity were apparently there was none in this particular case.

 

[Kartal1]

From the days of the Ottomans to the creation of the Republic of Turkey by Mustafa Kemal ATATURK even to these days there are many historical moments that need to be discussed and are a topics of debate for decades. As I see many of our members are passionate of discussing Turkish history I decided to make a dedicated thread.

You are free to discuss and debate historical events in this thread. Please be kind to each other. You are free to debate and discuss all the things that you find interesting regarding the Turkish history in this thread

 

[Ryder]

I am not foreseer to go inside people heads like in past or today, all i can do is to observe facts and draw my own conclusion based on rationality and current circumtences.

If the merely mentioning undisputable historical fact and its correlation with contemporary times is crying for you, so be it. I think it is not.

Honestly what can you do??

We are paying the price for the collapse of our empire.

As much as we wanted our lost territories back it was all secondary to the Turkish homeland.

Not to mention the Turks were a minority in these lands. Sooner or later we were still going to lose these lands to British, French or the Russians and to rebellions.

Nobody wanted the Turks to rule these. Even non Turkish Muslims wanted us kicked out.

When it comes to survival everything is secondary.

 

[mulj]

Honestly what can you do??

We are paying the price for the collapse of our empire.

As much as we wanted our lost territories back it was all secondary to the Turkish homeland.

Not to mention the Turks were a minority in these lands. Sooner or later we were still going to lose these lands to British, French or the Russians and to rebellions.

Nobody wanted the Turks to rule these. Even non Turkish Muslims wanted us kicked out.

When it comes to survival everything is secondary.

Nothing much beyond taking moral of the story and similar ones into people minds. It is spilled milk now, try to not spill more or fill the bucket with more milk, thats it.

 

[Kartal1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433723326795599874

 

[Ardabas34]

@Nein2.0(Nomad)

I asked from Ottomans you talk about Artuqids.

You have this one Takiyüddin you constantly bring up. We are talking about a 622 year old empire.

You acknowledge Ottomans didnt invent anything(rather contributed?) but you dont refrain from calling me biased.

Literally every city of Europe was coming up with an invention throughout early modern period.

Serbians for 500 years didnt invent shit under our administration and the moment they were independent Nicola Tesla was born. As if they were waiting for Ottomans to be over.

We all know how Takiyüddin ended up as well. They bombarded his observatory.

Ottomans were an anti-science state. They opposed science which is why it didnt flourish in their lands.

Levent Kirca had a very nice sketch on Ottoman mentality:

Padişahım çok yaşa!

Isaac Newton laid the foundations of classical physics. Ottomans were a sad joke.