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TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Merzifonlu

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I do think the share of complexity within the software of F35 is the biggest problem, almost 30 years ago when they started the project.
I think after a short while the software will not be a problem. I think the reliability of the hardware and short maintenance intervals will be the main problem.

Why do I think software is no longer a problem? Because if you prepare the desired output set in response to the desired input set, artificial intelligence software developers who automatically build the rest of the project are already operational. Or they will become operational shortly.

Since these will not age, code maintenance and updates also will not be an problem.

But I think that after the hardware matures, all the software must be created from scratch by these artificial intelligence systems.
 
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Rooxbar

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We MUST try to acquire F-35s; we must keep Kaan as a black box for everybody and hence Kaan should not join NATO exercises and missions. That should be done with the F-35s that we hopefully acquire; through acquiring F-35s we would be able to aid our air defense systems to detect and identify the F-35 as a preventive measure against HAF F-35s. We can further do range testing with our current and upcoming air defense systems and have the exact rcs profile in the library of our IADS. Furthermore, we can learn a lot about how the legendary sensor fusion is implemented in F-35 and also much can be learnt from AN/APG-81 for a country with our level of acquaintance with AESAs.

For these reasons a minimal amount of F-35s would suffice.
 

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70 Percent or More of F-35s May Not Be Combat Capable​


A September 2023 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the F-35 revealed some shocking statistics on just how unready hundreds of billions of dollars worth of F-35s are to provide actual combat power. In fact, the report indicated that only 15 to 30 percent of F-35s may be capable of combat.

But if you were to read a typical article in the media, you might believe that, on average, some 55 percent of F-35s are combat-capable. However, you would be wrong. You see, when the average person sees a report declaring that 55 percent of F-35 combat aircraft are “mission capable,” they assume mission capable equals combat capable. But in doing so, they are being deceived.

The deception comes out of how the F-35 program office and the whole of the Department of Defense define “mission capable.” It turns out that the DoD definition of “mission capable” does not mean combat capable. What it means is that an aircraft can fly and perform at least one mission. So, a plane designated as mission capable might be capable of doing some type of combat, but it might not. Instead, the mission it might be capable of executing could be testing or training, or some other mission that does not involve combat. And even if it is considered capable of testing or training, it might not be capable of doing the full gamut of testing or training you would expect from a fully functional aircraft. Likewise, it could still be classified as mission capable even if it is only capable of executing a portion of the combat-type missions it is supposed to be able to perform.

Hence, within the environs of the military–industrial–congressional complex, “mission capable” is a highly ambiguous term that allows for a whole lot of gaming of accountability metrics. And it tells us very little. Still, it is worth noting that at a 55 percent mission capable rate, the F-35 fleet is well below program targets of 90 percent for the F-35A (Air Force) and 85 percent for the fighter’s F-35B (Marine Corps) and F-35C (Navy) variants. In other words, the F-35 fleet as a whole is nowhere near meeting its mission capability goal of being able to do anything at all.
However, there is another metric that is more useful: “full mission capable.” It turns out that “full mission capable” F-35s are supposed to be able to perform all the missions for which they were contracted, including combat-oriented missions, surveillance, training, testing, show of force, etcetera. This metric is not often publicized, but in the case of the F-35, the watchdog side of the GAO actually did a detailed report of the problems and issues with the F-35 that included how the F-35 fleet looked from the “full mission capable” perspective.

Even for someone who is an F-35 realist, the results are shocking. Not only is the F-35 fleet’s full mission capable rate in the neighborhood of 30 percent (see table on page 96 of the report), the full mission capable rate of the Marine Corps’ F-35B was a miserable 15.5 percent in March 2023. More current full mission capable rates have not been published, but given the program’s ongoing problems and issues, including unreliable engines that are now under-specced due to feature creep, it is highly unlikely the situation has improved in the last year.
And then there is the fact that being fully mission capable is no indicator of how well the plane executes its missions. For example, the F-35 could be designated as mission capable for conducting close air support missions despite the fact the F-35 is the very antithesis of what a close air support plane should be and is not capable of executing genuine close air support.

But given the F-35’s unreliability, talking about full mission capability rates of anything approaching even 50 percent is a pipe dream. And it cannot be overemphasized that the F-35/Joint Strike Fighter has been in development since 1994, costing billions of dollars.

This brings us back to the question of just how many of the over 600 F-35s delivered to the U.S. military can provide significant, non-trivial combat ability. The answer is we really don’t know. But if we combine the F-35’s fragility with its very low full mission-capable and sortie generation rates, it probably isn’t many. Especially, when you think of how many decades and billions of dollars we have dumped into it.
Nevertheless, we will continue to dump billions of dollars into the F-35 program that is already “more than a decade delayed and $183 billion over its original plans” as long as the incestuous relationship between defense contractors, the military, and Congress is permitted to dominate defense procurement.


View attachment 66589
GI4gCW7XIAAMGtZ


Normally, the ability of one F-16C fighter jet to perform all missions is expected to be around 90%. You can see this in a statistics from 1995. In F-35s, this rate never reached 10%.

 

Rooxbar

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GI4gCW7XIAAMGtZ


Normally, the ability of one F-16C fighter jet to perform all missions is expected to be around 90%. You can see this in a statistics from 1995. In F-35s, this rate never reached 10%.


This was the worst year for F-35s in 2016:

images-4.jpg



with this the year before:

images-5.jpg



This mc from 2020, but no fmc rates:

https://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2020/Index%20of%20Military%20Strength/TABLES/2021_IndexOfUSMilitaryStrength_TABLES_06-2.gif



This is similar for a range of years 2014-2017:

https://www.airforcetimes.com/resizer/i9IjOj2AQGIZvnA8j7IZfzcnLao=/1440x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/archetype/PCIKWYF4HZGV3LH3MI7TRE7CUI.jpg



Similarly:

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/15897.jpeg



This for other aircraft including F-22 for comparison:

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/780xany/3/9/7/87397_missioncapableratesfalling_697728.jpg



This from 2022:

https://www.airforcetimes.com/resizer/b7YitSM9rrtJA092AkinKk-r0Ss=/1440x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/archetype/7XECM5WNZFAY5OTCNFIVLGIO54.jpg


Here (https://www.defensedaily.com/f-35-s...-pay-bonuses-for-improved-mc-rates/air-force/) F-35 FMC is reported as 54%.

Here (https://www.twz.com/blistering-highlights-from-the-latest-f-35-sustainment-hearing) it is mentioned that U.S. Navy's F-35Cs had FMC of 9% for the year 2021. Other reports show FMC dropped from around 40% in 2015 to 14% for F-35B in 2016. These are the lowest numbers I could find.

According to the F-35 and F-22 reports for "Director Operational Test and Evaluation" (https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2023/dod/2023f-35jsf.pdf?ver=CwYFf-qisrEiTGhwDpzQmg==), the rates are similar for the two 5th gen fighters, although F-35 did record a slightly lower than average 2023 with 48% FMC and 61% MC.

The comparison between FMC of older gen aircraft with 5th gen fighters is not warranted as the more complex electronic systems, and esp. in the case of F-35 the complex mission set means the definitional requirements of FMC vs plain MC requirements hit F-35 harder than they would an older generation aircraft with a more straightforward mission set. But even those older generation aircraft meet the FMC requirements set very rarely:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/720/710799.png


Another point is that FMC rate graphs will always be sinusoidal curves starting at the maxima and dipping before recovering. The rate of recovery will vary, but it'd be more appropriate to compare FMCs of different aircraft with their respective time slices.
 
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Ecderha

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How things started and How things ended.....
Picture On Top is Before and picture on Bottom is After :) ( There are no such country in world that did such thing! )


2017: TAI successfully produces and delivers the F-35 JSF medium fuselage.
2019: The u.s. unlawfully removes Turkiye from the F-35 program, using the S400 purchase as an excuse.
2023: Turkiye enters the world arena with its own 5th generation fighter jet. "The best revenge is self-improvement. Do not rely on psudo Ally"



 

Huelague

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How things started and How things ended.....
Picture On Top is Before and picture on Bottom is After :) ( There are no such country in world that did such thing! )


2017: TAI successfully produces and delivers the F-35 JSF medium fuselage.
2019: The u.s. unlawfully removes Turkiye from the F-35 program, using the S400 purchase as an excuse.
2023: Turkiye enters the world arena with its own 5th generation fighter jet. "The best revenge is self-improvement. Do not rely on psudo Ally"



Turkiye should return in F-35 program. As a producer. Not as a buyer.
 

Heartbang

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How things started and How things ended.....
Picture On Top is Before and picture on Bottom is After :) ( There are no such country in world that did such thing! )


2017: TAI successfully produces and delivers the F-35 JSF medium fuselage.
2019: The u.s. unlawfully removes Turkiye from the F-35 program, using the S400 purchase as an excuse.
2023: Turkiye enters the world arena with its own 5th generation fighter jet. "The best revenge is self-improvement. Do not rely on psudo Ally"



And it will outsell the F-35, inshallah.
 

Fuzuli NL

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I wouldn't mind going back to the F-35 program given that it won't affect the production of KAAN.
 

OPTIMUS

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the Americans think it is inevitable that Turkey will return to the F35 program in order to strangle the Europa air force. with every F35 ordered, the Europe seal their own fate. for that, Turkey must return to the program.
 

TheInsider

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We should return to the industrial part of the F-35 program, we should also negotiate for expanded industrial participation.
 

what

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Why would we get any part in the production of F35? That was an offset deal, there's no deal to offset any more. That ship has sailed.
 

Windchime

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Turkiye should return in F-35 program. As a producer. Not as a buyer.
We should return to the industrial part of the F-35 program, we should also negotiate for expanded industrial participation.
Actually delusional to think that US has even a single reason to include Turkiye in F-35 supply chain now.
 

Zafer

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Actually delusional to think that US has even a single reason to include Turkiye in F-35 supply chain now.
Is it not true that they have difficulty in producing the F35 in expected numbers and all is well with production. What coud be the reason why the US side keeps approaching Turkiye about F35.
 

Shtr

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I would kindly everyone to focus Mete Yarar and his words around 158th seconds. He clearly says that F35 project provided tech transfer to Turkey. I guess it played a very crucial role in the development of KAAN and I wholeheartedly want to return the project. It will not bring some money but also recent advances in the field of defense industry.



I started to believe that we must join all west consortiums in the fields that we are not developed enough such as energy and electronic.
 

Rooxbar

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I would kindly everyone to focus Mete Yarar and his words around 158th seconds. He clearly says that F35 project provided tech transfer to Turkey. I guess it played a very crucial role in the development of KAAN and I wholeheartedly want to return the project. It will not bring some money but also recent advances in the field of defense industry.



I started to believe that we must join all west consortiums in the fields that we are not developed enough such as energy and electronic.
His words are important not because he can be taken seriously but because he's a mouthpiece and if he's saying stuff opposite of what he and his ilk have been saying for 4 years, it's a sign he's been cajoled towards that statement. This is more a declaration of our intent than the Americans. Everybody who knows anything about anything can basically deduce even without any empirical evidence that participation in a project concocted by the world's most eminent defense firms from the world super-power, with the rates of employment, patents, R&D budgets, etc, to the tune of 100x our own will help us learn shit. And furthermore it doesn't take a super-human intelligence to deduce it'd be beneficial to stay connected to that pipeline that is fed by the world's best universities which attract the top talent from India, China, Russia, Europe, South America and all over the world and has the biggest ecosystem of start-ups supplying R&D for the top 10 biggest defense firms from the global top 20 with basically infinite budgets to waste as much hours as they want experimenting and scrapping ideas one after another, things we cannot afford to even 1/100th of.
 
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