TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Zafer]

ended us up with a Kaan we are still dependent on US for its engines

LOL

 

[Iskander]

Untrue.

People genuinely believe in the thought experiment that we did all that, had ourselves removed from the program and got sanctioned under CAATSA because we actually "DIDN'T" want F-35s. This is dumb. There were other ways to remove ourselves from the program, like I don't know, changing our future planning and saying we no longer needed F-35s in our future vision.

Anyone that says Turkey willingly did all this because we DIDN'T want F-35s is just kidding themselves. It was a bluff that failed horribly, which ended us up with a Kaan we are still dependent on US for its engines, 2 batteries of S-400s we haven't used once in any theaters where they could be needed and no F-35s.

But there were other nuances. The most important thing is Turkey's right where, when and how to use its F35s. There was talk that, having acquired them, Türkiye would become dependent on Washington not only for technical reasons, but also for military-political ones. If Türkiye cannot use Turkish F35s without restrictions, then why do Türkiye need them? They even said that the Americans, if they wanted, could technically intervene or secretly obtain information from the fighter jets' computers.
It is known that the Americans, unlike other customers, made some exceptions for Israel regarding Adir avionics.
but they did not agree to Ankara's similar conditions.

Imagine: a Turkish fighter jet flies over Turkish territory, scans the area and sends this data... to Uncle Sam
Therefore, I admit that Ankara abandoned them of its own free will. If not, please provide a good reason why Türkiye chose the S400. Where did Ankara expect an air attack from?

 

[Sanchez]

But there were other nuances. The most important thing is Turkey's right where, when and how to use its F35s. There was talk that, having acquired them, Turkey would become dependent on Washington not only for technical reasons, but also for military-political ones. If Türkiye cannot use Turkish F35s without restrictions, then why do Turkey need them? They even said that the Americans, if they wanted, could technically intervene or secretly obtain information from the fighter jets' computers.
It is known that the Americans, unlike other clients, made some exceptions for Israel regarding the Adirov avionics, and Ankara refused a similar condition.

Imagine: a Turkish fighter jet flies over Turkish territory, scans the area and sends this data... to Uncle Sam...
Therefore, I admit that Ankara abandoned them of its own free will. If not, please provide a good reason why Türkiye chose the S400. Where did Türkiye expect an air attack from?

That's not an answer to my point. Yes, F-35 came with a lot of baggage. Yes, F-35 possibly had restrictions. I've been saying the same thing for more than 10 years in 3 forums. All this was known, well before Turkey opted to join the program 20 years ago. F-35 is the epitome of American geopolitical military cooperation. Plenty of countries over the years discussed getting F-35s or not, even partners in the program. Canada is one example.

Turkish dependency on US weapons didn't start with F-35s. We liberated Northern Cyprus with US weapons and accepted an embargo for it. American made tanks are deployed to Cyprus. To this day, our chief weapon when shit hits the fan in Syria and Iraq is not a TB2 or Akıncı, but an F-16 with HGK, some of the time an American made Paveway. Zafer laughs, but he also knows there is no Kaan in the next 20 years unless Americans give us F110s so we can develop Kaan.

Point is, Turkey didn't change its future planning to not procure F-35s. It tried to walk a balance between Russia and US and failed between Syria Ukraine and Iraq. Of course we can't just look at this from a procurement angle and Syrian war and 2016 coup attempt must be read together.

Up until the point US Senate and the JSF office banned Turkey from the program, Turkey was still placing new orders for F-35s, first Turkish F-35s were rolled of the assembly line and first Turkish pilots was in training in US. None of these are actions of a country that decided to NOT procure F-35. Turkey could just decide to lower its commitment to the program and HvKK could release a white paper indicating Turkey was aiming for a future with less or without any F-35s. It didn't do that. Because it was never the goal.

It wasn't a perfect feint for overall greater independence. People will forget what happened in the past and will come up with other realities where their side wasn't in the wrong but was just wronged or it was our plan in the first place. Just like they forgot about Rabia in Egypt, Saudis butchering a person in Istanbul, Mitsotakis not existing to become our best friend again. Turkish foreign policy of the last 15 years is littered with failure after failure where we were only saved from greater defeats by our own heavyweight inertia. No matter how much you fuck up, a country of 85+ million is still worth to have around at the end of the day. And at the end of the day we will gladly pay 20 billion for F-16s to not have that link to US be cut for good before it's time to do so ourselves.

 

[Zafer]

That's not an answer to my point. Yes, F-35 came with a lot of baggage. Yes, F-35 possibly had restrictions. I've been saying the same thing for more than 10 years in 3 forums. All this was known, well before Turkey opted to join the program 20 years ago. F-35 is the epitome of American geopolitical military cooperation. Plenty of countries over the years discussed getting F-35s or not, even partners in the program. Canada is one example.

Turkish dependency on US weapons didn't start with F-35s. We liberated Northern Cyprus with US weapons and accepted an embargo for it. American made tanks are deployed to Cyprus. To this day, our chief weapon when shit hits the fan in Syria and Iraq is not a TB2 or Akıncı, but an F-16 with HGK, some of the time an American made Paveway. Zafer laughs, but he also knows there is no Kaan in the next 20 years unless Americans give us F110s so we can develop Kaan.

Point is, Turkey didn't change its future planning to not procure F-35s. It tried to walk a balance between Russia and US and failed between Syria Ukraine and Iraq. Of course we can't just look at this from a procurement angle and Syrian war and 2016 coup attempt must be read together.

Up until the point US Senate and the JSF office banned Turkey from the program, Turkey was still placing new orders for F-35s, first Turkish F-35s were rolled of the assembly line and first Turkish pilots was in training in US. None of these are actions of a country that decided to NOT procure F-35. Turkey could just decide to lower its commitment to the program and HvKK could release a white paper indicating Turkey was aiming for a future with less or without any F-35s. It didn't do that. Because it was never the goal.

It wasn't a perfect feint for overall greater independence. People will forget what happened in the past and will come up with other realities where their side wasn't in the wrong but was just wronged or it was our plan in the first place. Just like they forgot about Rabia in Egypt, Saudis butchering a person in Istanbul, Mitsotakis not existing to become our best friend again. Turkish foreign policy of the last 15 years is littered with failure after failure where we were only saved from greater defeats by our own heavyweight inertia. No matter how much you fuck up, a country of 85+ million is still worth to have around at the end of the day. And at the end of the day we will gladly pay 20 billion for F-16s to not have that link to US be cut for good before it's time to do so ourselves.

There is ups and downs in everything but navigating to a high ground among too many pitfalls that the enemy paved in many decades is nothing but brilliant. Today Türkiye is at over 80% self reliant and looking to become 95% in the next 5 years. Look at other nations who are in free fall to know where we stand.

 

[Sanchez]

There is ups and downs in everything but navigating to a high ground among too many pitfalls that the enemy paved in many decades is nothing but brilliant. Today Türkiye is at over 80% self reliant and looking to become 95% in the next 5 years. Look at other nations who are in free fall to know where we stand.

This has been the plan for good and for bad for the last 50 years. Yes, it did indeed increase in scope after 2000s.

Current level of indigenization is very impressive but it also comes with lack of capabilities where we operate the oldest jet fighters in our region next to our rivals, for example. There are two reasons why Turkey is not importing as much it used to. One is indeed heavier reliance on things we build ourselves. Other is because they don't sell us things we want, like F-35s. When the F-16 deal is signed after 5 years of delays, our import rate will increase again for the upcoming 5 year period.

Goal was to move toward self reliance in time with our own resources WITHOUT losing capabilities. We have failed at that, where our ship programs are delayed, our armored vehicle programs are delayed and our aircraft programs are delayed and all our forces are downsizing. This is both to modernize the forces by lowering numbers and thus lowering costs but also because stuff we make aren't exactly that cheap either.

It's not terrible, it's not great. We will probably survive tho. I however greatly disagree that we are at a high ground geopolitically. We are making do with what we have left and a shit economy.

 

[Quasar]

No need to love Nato and also there is no need to be delusional

Collective security is a reality even with American dominance in decision making Nato is a working organization (especially in a military sense in its simplest form NATO is a set of standardizations) .... Germany, İtaly, Spain, UK, Sweeden, Netherlands...Finland have their domestic military industries and this has nothing against NATO...

Only exception is France starting from Charles de Gaule they are delusional anyway , even when they left NATO they some how binded themselves to collective security.

We have our own domestic military industry and influnce areas, we are increasing our gravity and system is re adjusting itself ,still not a major infringement with NATO


in an alternative timeline in which we were not a NATO member all we had would be some T 72s may be some T 90s we would be reteiring our mig 23 we would have mig 29s or at best some French fighters insted of F 16s and dont know also Kilo class submarines... we would be like early cold war Egypt or post cold war Pakistan.

We should also not ignore the fact that infrastructure of our military industry and production tools have deep conections with west.

as long as West have Technological edge over East we simply cant ignore them.


I also belive that we can have some F 35 (smallest quantity possible)

-nuclear deterrence for Turkey is not a short term option yet

 

[Zafer]

No need to love Nato and also there is no need to be delusional

Collective security is a reality even with American dominance in decision making Nato is a working organization (especially in a military sense in its simplest form NATO is a set of standardizations) .... Germany, İtaly, Spain, UK, Sweeden have their domestic military industries and this has nothing against NATO...

We have our own allies and influnce areas

Only exception is France starting from Charles de Gaule they are delusional anyway

in an alternative timeline in which we were not a NATO member all we had would be some T 72s may be some T 90s we would be reteiring our mig 23 we would have mig 29s or at best some French fighters insted of F 16s and dont know also Kilo class submarines... we would be like Egypt or Pakistan.

We should also not ignore the fact that infrastructure of our military industry and production tools have deep conections with west.

as long as West have Technological edge over East we simply cant ignore them.

-nuclear deterrence for Turkey is not a short term option yet

NATO is the reason we were left in the dust while the world progressed. With good leadership we could be 20 years ahead of where we are now, with local technology above 97%. NATO provided some security but made us farmers and servants that served the rich western alliance.

 

[Barry]

more nonsense

 

[blackjack]

F-35s are more than likely going to be compromisted project anyways. Poland is getting an order of them, kalingrad and Belarus are next to Poland's border and Ukraine's fate is still pending. having giant ass radars placed close to Poland's borders will give the Russians the information they need on the aircrafts. Turkey still has a huge airspace in which they can operate and design their own single engine 5th gen aircraft.

 

[Rodeo]

F-35s are more than likely going to be compromisted project anyways. Poland is getting an order of them, kalingrad and Belarus are next to Poland's border and Ukraine's fate is still pending. having giant ass radars placed close to Poland's borders will give the Russians the information they need on the aircrafts. Turkey still has a huge airspace in which they can operate and design their own single engine 5th gen aircraft.

The Poles would not fly their F35s without reflectors on their eastern borders. Similarly, the Greeks won't ever fly their F35s without reflectors. Their pilots would be trained on American soil with the proper stealth settings.

They would want to keep their edge in case of a hot conflict.

 

[Radko]

What people keep forgetting on KAAN v F-35 topic (for TurAF) is that KAAN wouldn't happen (or at least in 2030s) if we got F-35s.


KAAN really started out of desperation of TurAF in 2018 (T0, there were workshops for requirements but most of them got changed after it was obvious that US-Turkish interest clash made Turkish F-35s a dream) TurAF would have never wanted a Turkish designed fighter as the main/backbone of the AF if we got our F-35s.


I always say that most of our Airforce lacks vision and we should rename it to "F-16 Grup Komutanlığı"

 

[Ecderha]

No need to love Nato and also there is no need to be delusional

Collective security is a reality even with American dominance in decision making Nato is a working organization (especially in a military sense in its simplest form NATO is a set of standardizations) .... Germany, İtaly, Spain, UK, Sweeden have their domestic military industries and this has nothing against NATO...

Only exception is France starting from Charles de Gaule they are delusional anyway

We have our own domestic military industry and influnce areas, we are increasing our gravity and system is re adjusting itself ,still not a major infringement with NATO


in an alternative timeline in which we were not a NATO member all we had would be some T 72s may be some T 90s we would be reteiring our mig 23 we would have mig 29s or at best some French fighters insted of F 16s and dont know also Kilo class submarines... we would be like early cold war Egypt or post cold war Pakistan.

We should also not ignore the fact that infrastructure of our military industry and production tools have deep conections with west.

as long as West have Technological edge over East we simply cant ignore them.


I also belive that we can have some F 35 (smallest quantity possible)

-nuclear deterrence for Turkey is not a short term option yet

"I also belive that we can have some F 35 (smallest quantity possible)"

Why you want to spend money on F35 which you do not have the control.
-You are not allowed to use against any West country
-You are not allowed to use against any usa ally (isreal,cypres, any new ally)
-You are not allowed to use OWN military platforms on it
-Do you understand that any damage on F35 you WILL PAY MONEY 5x more
-Do you know that F35 is the latest Tech and WILL COUNTIUE to send intelligence data to usa without you approval ( as F16 send it before). This time F35 have much more ( I mean data with pictures, data with radio spectrum, data which is FUSSED including AI ) in REAL TIME
-Do you know that F35 will be as TROY HORSE sitting on Anadolu Carrier and giving all above to usa and his allies in REAL TIME
-Do you know that personal involved in F35 will be busy with F35. It mean They will be spend time F35 and less or non on OWN platforms (give you example KAAN)
-Do you know that Turkiye played this game with F16 and We saw the FACTS -> Simply put, you WILL be a SLAVE and you Master will be usa. Like it or not you will obey what contract say and what usa ask.


When subject is independece and freedom.
To able to apply that with military platform which you CONTROLED, when ever you want it without obey other, then only then - we can put "CARDS on TABLE " and have "THE a WORDS which have REAL LEVERAGE"

People which able to follow FACTS and learn from own Mistakes. This people will always, always be Better.
People which do the same mistake over and over again and LIETHEMSELF that this TIME outcome will be different. This poeple will always, always will be the losers.

"KANDIRILDIK"!

 

[Quasar]

"I also belive that we can have some F 35 (smallest quantity possible)"

Why you want to spend money on F35 which you do not have the control.
-You are not allowed to use against any West country
-You are not allowed to use against any usa ally (isreal,cypres, any new ally)
-You are not allowed to use OWN military platforms on it
-Do you understand that any damage on F35 you WILL PAY MONEY 5x more
-Do you know that F35 is the latest Tech and WILL COUNTIUE to send intelligence data to usa without you approval ( as F16 send it before). This time F35 have much more ( I mean data with pictures, data with radio spectrum, data which is FUSSED including AI ) in REAL TIME
-Do you know that F35 will be as TROY HORSE sitting on Anadolu Carrier and giving all above to usa and his allies in REAL TIME
-Do you know that personal involved in F35 will be busy with F35. It mean They will be spend time F35 and less or non on OWN platforms (give you example KAAN)
-Do you know that Turkiye played this game with F16 and We saw the FACTS -> Simple put you WILL be SLAVE and you master will be usa. You like it or not you will obey what is contract say and what usa ask.


When subject is independece and freedom.
To able to apply that with military platform which you CONTROLED, when ever you want it without obey other, then only then - we can put "CARDS on TABLE " and have "THE a WORDS which have REAL LEVERAGE"

People which able to follow FACTS and learn from own Mistakes. This people will always, always be Better.
People which do the same mistake over and over again and LIETHEMSELF that this TIME outcome will be deffirent. This poeple will always, always will be the losers.

"KANDIRILDIK"!

ART OF WAR

Sun Tzu advises you know your enemy. To know your enemy, first understand its strengths and weaknesses


or from more idealist point of view I believe we may still have things to learn from this knowledge pool called F 35 as we already did before

 

[Ecderha]

ART OF WAR

Sun Tzu advises you know your enemy. To know your enemy, first understand its strengths and weaknesses

This is the latest FACTs provided by usa as information about F35. All customers know it.

FACT 1:
" Each F-35 has locked source code for all the computer systems and EACH day it needs a code to be entered to permit the plane to operate.
Only the US and the sole level 1 partner ( like isreal ) can generate the codes needed.
This means that all the time purchasers of the F-35 remain US allies they can operate the F-35 using the supplied codes, BUT the US can Immediately cripple the F-35 fleet of any customer"

FACT 2:
In addition, to above next measure is that:
the United States does have certain security measures and protocols in place to protect sensitive technology and ensure that the use of such equipment aligns with mutual defense agreements.
F35 systems require routine and periodic preventive maintenance, and they SUFFER random breakdowns of components and parts.


FACT 3:
Turkiye is not PARTNER
Turkiye is not ALLY ( Ally as Uk, Isreal, Germany, Holland, Italy etc..)
Turkiye is special case for usa. Special like Turkiye is enemy which need to be Controled by usa. Special like there are obstacles for usa when come to region and Turkiye. So therefore usa apply (psudo Ally) policy. It is all depend what Turkiye try to do in region without obeying usa

 

[mehmed beg]

A few months ago, I read somewhere, when the director of Havelsan asked for the limited access to software he was told plainly " You aren't buying the plane but stories "
Well , just like an ice cream, it can have various flavors and amount.

 

[Heartbang]

stories

Sorties?

 

[Windchime]

Is it not true that they have difficulty in producing the F35 in expected numbers and all is well with production. What coud be the reason why the US side keeps approaching Turkiye about F35.

No, F-35 is hovering 140 aircraft a year and that is the expected full capacity with current infrastructure. They have a long-term plan for CAPEX to more than 200 a year but that is far into the future. Also most production constraints during and after the Covid period were down to, you guessed it, Covid and it's aftermath. It's also cleared for FRP now.

US approaching Turkiye? Well who knows, maybe, unlike some member here are so inclined to believe, the US never wanted to cut-off Turkiye because of its strategic importance? Maybe they'd still like to resolve the S-400 issue and what not. Though apart from Turkish sources, I haven't actually seen any reputable sources mentioning that Turkish return to the JSF program and the supply chain is on the table.

1.For a cheaper unit price. 2.To slow down MMU process. 3.To accelerate mass production. 4. To animate Turkey to buy some. 5. For legal reason..

1. It's already going down, and restructuring F-35 supply chain now by re-including Turkiye will only disrupt it.
2. THK, SSB and TUSAS are already very committed to the program, and US isn't dumb enough to think that luring Turkiye with F-35 would actually hinder MMU. Also, if they truly want to slow down MMU, they could just not supply F110, simple as that
3. Mass production is already underway for years, so you are out of the loop by saying "accelerate" something that is already there.
4. It works the other way around.
5. US doesn't face any legal issues with Turkish F-35 tucked into the storage. They are still "Turkish F-35s" that cannot be delivered due to national security concerns, ie. S-400.

How many mid-sections did Germany deliver since Germany replaced Turkiye for the F-35 project?

How many F-35 airframes and F135 were finished without Turkish suppliers and PW KALE?


Again, thinking that US has any reason to include Turkiye in F-35 supply chain again, now, after all those years, is delusional. And to think that they would do so so that they could sell F-35s, not they are doing so because they sold F-35, is even more delusional. If you seriously think that a supply chain could be restructured that easily, I'm speechless of how naïve a person is.

If they are willing to hand over three Anadolu's worth of F-35B's with F-16 Özgür levels of control on the hardware and software (F-35T, basically.) along with full tech transfer of GE's XA100 for the KAAN, then I'm game. That's our worth, IMO.

That is, again, outright not going to happen and to think that any country on Earth, even Five Eyes, could get much concession from the US is delusional.

I have no idea if the hurjet project was started before Turkiye had radar chambers, but they might as well start making designs of their own stealth single engine aircraft and maybe treat the Hurjet like how Russia treats the Mig-35.

F-35
-80 million dollars.
-sources saying flights cost 36,000-45,000 dollars.
-self ejected a pilot, self-ejected another pilot because of bug in program and I shit you not after the south korean F-35 hit a bird they had to retire the aircraft which originally cost them 85 million dollars but the repairs would have cost over 100 million dollars
-4 internal air to air missile carry with a rack option which has yet to be implemented with a 6 air to air missile carry option.

Su-75
-25-35 million dollars per aircraft as proposal
-flight costs are estimated 6-7 times less than F-35
-electronics are configurable for you if you want to put your own radar or infrared systems.
-5 internal air to air missiles.
-https://new.fips.ru/registers-doc-view/fips_servlet?DB=RUPAT&DocNumber=2807558&TypeFile=html patent allows you to change the cockpit however you like from one seat, 2 seat or UAV mode without having to purchase a whole new platform.
-3000km max range internal fuel, UAV option for cockpit would reduce weight and significantly increase the range passed 3000km.

There are benefits between going to a 3 star Michelin restaurant or making your own food. Turkiye should make their own single engine stealth aircraft and decide if they will make the engines for it or purchase it elsewhere.

Sorry, one's got around 1000 of them produced, has been flying and operating for years. Other's got a mock up on the ground and none of it's "potential partners" like UAE or India is actually committing to the program. Small dogs bark louder.

 

[blackjack]

The Poles would not fly their F35s without reflectors on their eastern borders. Similarly, the Greeks won't ever fly their F35s without reflectors. Their pilots would be trained on American soil with the proper stealth settings.

They would want to keep their edge in case of a hot conflict.

Is it possible for F-35 customers to ask for refunds?

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17186545?ysclid=lu7mkrrcnh326885144

The peculiarity of "Sula" is that the antenna is located on a rotary support, which allows you to cover a longer range of action
MOSCOW, March 3. /TASS/. The state-of-the-art Sula space object surveillance radar can be installed on seagoing vessels. This was reported to TASS by a representative of PJSC Radiophysics (part of the Almaz-Antey Air and Space Defense Concern).

"Sula" is a radar for monitoring space debris, its range reaches 6 thousand km in the S band. If the customer wants to install such a radar on the ship, this can be done, while the size of the antenna can be changed in accordance with the customer's requirements, without losing technical characteristics," he said, adding that in this case, the power and range of the station will be reduced.

As the representative of the concern specified, the detection range of an object with an RCS of 10 square meters is 6 thousand km, and at a distance of 1,500 km, an object with dimensions of only 10 cm will be detected.

Earlier it was reported that the peculiarity of "Sula" is that the antenna is located on a rotary support, which allows you to cover a greater range of action. The station is controlled from a command and computing center made in a prefabricated module.

reflectors or not, your not going to stay invisible from a radar that tracks .001m2 targets from 1,500kms away. The width of Polands borders is 689kms. Flight Ceiling of F-35 is 50,000ft or rather 15.24kms assuming the radar is 30 meters tall https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en-US/calculator/radar-horizon/#google_vignette it is possible to see them 531.4 kms away. Radar reflectors might not help against 4th gen adversary aircrafts if its purpose is to spike up the RCS. Assuming runways are not targeted and F-35s are 200kms away from the border the F-35s will be limited at a 2.55km height and the closer they get to their border to enter Russia the aircraft will have to drop lower. Not only do you burn more range for your air to air missile to ascend towards their targets but your revealing the topisde of the aircraft more than the front side which gives a very high RCS return.....I mean you can have the F-35s fly high but ground radars can exchange information's with 4th gen aircrafts to use their air to air missiles. There really is no use for Poland to operate the aircraft other than for decorations.

 

[blackjack]

Sorry, one's got around 1000 of them produced, has been flying and operating for years. Other's got a mock up on the ground and none of it's "potential partners" like UAE or India is actually committing to the program. Small dogs bark louder.

yeah self-ejecting pilots and the Koreans dont want to repair their F-35 because the costs are higher than buying the actual aircraft itself Although you might be out of date with your info but 22 are produced and the Su-70 and Su-75 will get later produced.

 

[mehmed beg]

Sorties?

Yes